Any unit that gets 5 points worth of performance upgrades for free is going to become highly valuable until enough units have got that discount... Grunts are cheap, 10 points, because they use Rifles without attachments or embellishments and they'd be about 14 points if they had a Combi yet still have worse stats than a Vanguard. Yes, a Rifle isn't all that much worse than a Combi Rifle, I agree, and I have written before that I think Combi Rifle profiles are pretty much universally too expensive compared to Rifle, Rifle+LSG, HMG, Sniper, etc etc. That's an alteration I think that needs to happen at a more universal level, though, than specifically to Vanguards. Point is, the reason why Grunts are viable and valuable isn't because of their ARM value, it's the concessions that makes that possible. Would it be terribly unbalanced to have them at that level of discount? Maybe, maybe not. CB has over-valued several stats and while CC certainly is the chief offender, there's very few stats that reach up to the shoulders of BS in terms of utility and value. You'll need PH once to dodge that Speculative Fire or you'll need CC once for that single time you get in close combat, or WIP once for when you try to flip the switch - but in each case you use BS and MOV several times per order to get to the spot where you use those stats and ARM when you fail. In either case, those are still not Vanguard-specific woes and we could probably identify several units per faction who "suffer" similarly because of it. You know. Like shooting fish in a barrel. Using dynamite. Wouldn't be hard finding them at all. Specific to making ARM 3 Vanguards happen at 14 points, I'd direct you to the PH stat, CC stat and the Combi Rifle as points where concessions probably need to be made while maintaining some integrity. In other words, take a look at the stuff Vanguards have that are made to be inferior in the current system, because that's probably the reason Vanguards are inferior. In either case, simply dropping the Combi down to an SMG or LSG would accomplish the goal - in other words borrow from Cheerkillers' strategy of viability.
If we had to drop the basic vanguard to a SMG to get them to that level, I'd be okay with it. I'm not on the field of 'combis are bad weapons' but I think making vanguards a somewhat defensive MI would certainly help them stand out from the other line infantry options in CA. Edit: comparing Grunts to Vanguards, I wouldn't mind a drop in CC to keep their cost manageable. And I think the drop on the second mov is probably worth another point or half too. That is half the points we need to make the boost from ARM1 to ARM3, I think. Dropping their gun from Combi to SMG would open a lot of room to fiddle with their loadouts, which would also be pretty cool and allow for some more interesting options. I mean, compared to the other LI in CA: Nox have DTWs Unidrons have dogged and impact templates Vanguards have Veteran(not very useful for LI in a faction with mnemonica) and heavy pistols? Vanguards just seem like a bad option.
If you want to make all profiles valuable and good in vanilla you're in for a very rough ride. A cheap hacker with Veteran is very valuable and it's all well and good if that is it in terms of viable profiles for vanilla if you can pick and choose between similar profiles and choose the most optimised between them for each role. Better focus on making sure a core sectorial unit like that works in their sectorial - in vanilla a bad unit isn't an issue if there's something else to choose from. By the way, Mnemotech? Granted I've managed to dodge Avatar lists quite well, but Sheeskin or Mentor LT and a Caliban CoC is the first thing Combined players add to their lists around here it seems like. But as long as you bring up vanilla, I can see myself taking Vanguard Hacker due to the BTS and Veteran status, I can see myself taking Vanguard HMG due to the cheap-ish HMG with a decent secondary gun*, and I can see myself taking the Unidron sniper as it has proven itself to me several times now, but I don't see myself using any of the Nox and I don't think I've ever seen Nox in a vanilla list. * This is not saying I ever would; that's still a very basic unit with an SWC weapon in vanilla where it's often a lot easier to fit a premium unit with the same SWC weapon in the list instead for better overall results.
Well, I used to defend the vanguard hacker as an useful piece in Vanilla CA back when regular hackers had access to buff programs. Now that is not the case, I don't like it because I would rather have a more aggressive hacker. I will say that he *is* good in a mixed link with a Suryat. I've used one a few times and it was always helpful and even won me a game once. But aside from the specialist profiles, the vanguards suffer from being too expensive for too little. If you want a cheerleader you take daturazi in MAF or anything else in CA. Rodoks do defensive fireteams better with their higher BS and mimetism, and so on and so on. Vanguards end up having no reason to exist even in their own sectorial. I mean, realistically, if you ditched vanguards and gave raktoraks a hacking device nobody would notice.
I'd remove every single drone aside from Dropsuit Taryot from MAF, then redistribute whatever their abilities and roles are into various Vanguard profiles. A Baggage + Light Flame guy. An EVO Hacker guy. Plasma weapons. etc. I mean, it can't be a "feature" of the Sectorial that a 24 pts 6-4 REM has 360 + Total Reaction + HMG on a BS11 Mim-3 with Shock Immune and a 22 pts HMG Vanguard is just so naff.
Basic combat REMs exist for a reason, though - to provide a common baseline of abilities. It's unfortunate that for most non-Ariadnan factions the TR REM displaces the basic line infantry HMGs by being just enough better and not all that more expensive. Ironically, Ariadna which doesn't have said TR REM has AP HMGs on several of their basic LI which would provide some incentive over the TR REM... I think the big fight here, though, is to make the Vanguards have value over Daturazi (which, I'm sure, every O-12 player is familiar with in Kappa vs Varangian). And yes, skewing them towards ARM does seem like it'd do the job.
IMO Dats are not a problem, they are auto include anyway. People need a good reason to take a Vanguard instead of an Ikadron or a 360 HMG TR Drone. ARM3 is not that reason.
As someone who, you know, plays morats, I'd say ARM 3 is a good reason. An ARM 3 BS11-14 Missile/Sniper turret would be very welcome. I don't think I would use the HMG even as a point man on a link because the Red Fury from the Raktorak or the HMG from the Suryat. But ARM 3 on a cheap defensive fireteam would be very, very welcome.
The Vanguard hacker is actually one of the more interesting profiles. WIP 13, BTS3 Veteran + access to firewall [-3] via the Suryat is actually really solid. Spoiler
I forgot about the MI approach, came up a lot in old threads and its a really solid fix. Probably the easiest way to differentiate them effectively and usefully against their rivals in CA. Looking at a Line Kazak and a Grunt suggests that you can get an ARM 3 WIP 12 MOV 4-2 Vanguard.for 15 points. What would need to drop to get to 14? Maybe the CC 15 is worth a point lol, wouldn't put it past the points formula. Otherwise the BTS, though the idea of Vanguards as ARM 3 BTS 3 is really quite nice - similar to the Suryat's "aggressively vanilla" approach of no tricks itself, but immunity to many tricks that typically prey upon HI. God, MAF as a faction of "angry monkeys that don't have time for your special shit" seems pretty awesome if you ask me
So, the Bøyg's biggest issue is that the KoJ is right there, same ARM, BS, better BTS. KoJ is linkable, faster, and better in CC. Bøyg's selling points seem to be the Dodging and the 0 SWC "Spitfire", but in N4 SWC isn't as tight and PanO has no shortage of BS14 Spitfires. The burst 2 ML is cute, but it's not good as any vis Mods cock the odds up immediately. The super Dodging is nice, but now really something to build a plan around, especially we the Bøyg's lukewarm CC. So how do we fix? Bøygs are top secret voodootech derived suits using a direct neural interface, so how about Total Reaction on the missile? NWI like a lot of other S5 suits also makes him more survivable than the KoJ. Easy answers are Mimetism/MSV/Tacaware/NCO, and they are good answers, but also boring. Another option would be a longer ranged weapon in addition to the Mk12, and HRL or sniper rifle type of gun that becomes kind of decent with +1B.
Given that “big” HI is a new niche for PanO, I’m very curious to see the rules for the chunky Sepulcher Knight. I feel like that might inform thoughts on where the Boyg should be the same and where it should differ.
Böjg basically has the same problem as the Yan Huo, meaning it's managed to hit a blind spot in the price design where it is ever so slightly too expensive compared to S2 HI troops without NWI and ever so slightly too fragile compared to other S5 troops with NWI. And I really mean that even without the KoJ to compare to. Not mincing words, I think both cost a bit too much by about 5, but honestly I'd really like to see Pan-O stop having such close copies of Yu Jing heavy infantry.
Total reaction on the the ML profile (or both), but it atleast gives the ML a distinct role when compared to the KoJ.
Give the Boyg (and Locust) HD and Surprise Shot. It’d turn the Boyg into a ghetto, primarily active turn alternative to the Swiss and give the Locust a role vs the Nokken. 2 for 1.
Aside from the KoJ argument which is very valid, this profile also suffers from a lack of focus - dodge modifiers are for models that want to be getting close, as well as for cheaper models to give them an option when outgunned. They are not good on a missile platform or a 46 point PanO HI designed to always have the upper hand in firefights. I'd look at a redesign that makes it want to get close - thought not quite into CC like a knight. Heavy Shotgun (+1B), Chain Colt, 9 BTS. Then, while I agree that mimetism is boring, it plays into his 'hard to hit' design space especially when stripped of B4 firefight supremacy weapons. Finally, Impetuous could be considered as part of the delivery system. An S5 HI that doesn't want to sit in cover and tank, but can still be tanky AF anyway as it gets closer, is pretty interesting.
