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How to stop the Dogos ?

Discussion in 'Ariadna' started by eciu, Mar 28, 2019.

  1. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    So in a wake of newly "tested&balanced" Total Immunity:

    What's the way of stopping Dogos from rushing DZ and chain rifling everything ?

    Normal strategies against "typical" rambos doesn't work as the hacking, HFT corner guards, special ammo (EXP,DA), mines, E/M suicide blasts, and annoying and slowing Flash Pulses do not work (neither do HD sniper with stun ammo).

    Obviously stacking Combi's AROs is also not exactly possible as everyone need to keep their heads low due to fear of linked VetKazak or Specnaz.

    And lets assume we are not talking about one of those few factions with an actual Viral Ammo or access to ADHL, or linked FAT2.

    So what's the counterplay ?
     
    #1 eciu, Mar 28, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2019
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  2. Teslarod

    Teslarod Trebuchet Enthusiast

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    Leave out your Core Linked FAT2 dude and hope you get lucky with crits?

    Out of my last 2 games against McMurder he was blind for 3 Rounds and had to Smoke past the Flashpulse wall for another 2. But that's still how the game works for everyone else. What's the point of making the game more and more deadly with AROs and DZ defense getting overwhelmed?
     
  3. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Jokes on you!
    FTFM
     
  4. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

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    TR Bots. Dogs usually hate FTF rolls and having to smoke their way up is usually quite order intensive.
     
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  5. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    TR bot before or after Specnaz/Vet Kazak kills them ? Otherwise dogo might just smoke (unoposed) that thin/narrow pathway where TR drone can see it.
     
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  6. Ben Kenobi

    Ben Kenobi Well-Known Member

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    Adhesive launcher or Viral Ammunition
     
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  7. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

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    Before, mostly because Dogs are difficult to control as they have 6-4 MOV, as well as Super Jump and Climbing+, so often they are forced to recklessly jump over buildings or very awfull paths.
    Quite frankly, you do not sound like someone who plays against them a lot or those you do play against play them wrong and don't adhere to the "shortest amount of orders" dogma.
     
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  8. Marduck

    Marduck Well-Known Member

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    With heavy infantry list I wouldn't even bother stop them. Let them spend their order rushing to you (and I they are not transformed yet it usually take 4 orders. 1 impetuous, 1 irreg, 2 reg - 2 reg because of command token. That leaves them with 5 chain rifle / nade or CC attempts. Using 6 sens lvl 2 to let them choose their way to attack first (CC, chain rifle, or grenade) and then dodging on 14 or outshooting / out CC them. That's dicy but depending on your deploiement, your opponent choices etc. it might be very disapointing to the TAK player to spend all G1 orders only to inflict a couple wounds.

    But talking about MO I guess you are going to just say "MO are bad" ...
    Whatever ... my 2 cents for other HI lovers.

    Depending on the table disposition TO sniper and magister might be a nightmare for a TAK player to deal with. Even with spetnaz and Vet kazaks.
     
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  9. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Did you read my post ?
    On contrary. My usual TAK opponent always (at least for me) brings dogos. Also he plays well enough to understand this rule and prevent his dogo to run into massed ARO (or just bad (for him) ARO on his 1st impetues order).

    Not to mention that with a smoke rules you can easily deploy it covering the roof of any nearby building (and then proceed to climb/superjump on top of it if needed).
    Yes the HI link is usally quite robust against even double chain rifle (especially with Magisters) I've had quite a few nice games with those.
    Now the question is why would the dogos go after your sturdy link and just not murder fragile OS who hang around ? (or just kill OS/BF who are members of OS CORE).

    Or just go and assasinate your LT (bit of luck might be needed but definetaly worth it), as it is close to 50/50.

    Not to mention that even HI can sometimes fold hilariously to chain rifle shots.
    Yes, because I always said so without justification or explanation why I'm on such stance.

    Go beat the strawmen somewhere else.

    Are they ? Vet Kazak shoots 5 shots on 10s vs 1 shot on 9s (TO both in 32"). Magister knight shots (once) B2 panzerfaust on 12s vs 5 shots on 16s (again both 32"). Actually only Magister seems semi-reliable, and not even in "killing" Vet Kazak as more of "stalling him" for 1 order (as he has some chances of surviving full burst from Vet).

    Regarding specnaz the chances are even worse for TO MSR, and you would have to catch him under his camo, so that Specnaz cannot shoot you back (but then why not to move a bit more to avoid that ?). So again rather "camo detterant" (as the camo is best counter to enemy camo), than full ARO (because then TAK can advance dogos and force you to actually drop from marker state and face VetKazak/Specnaz).
     
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  10. p2k

    p2k New Member

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    The only thing worth mantion that changed is that they can ignore warcors, for this dogos now cost more.

    So stop them like you stoped then before. Sure dogos are strong and can alpha strike 3/4 of your army when you do a bad deployment, but still I dont see ariadna as a whole op in any form. Out of over 30 tournaments I cant remember one where actually ariadna won.

    So the thing is, if you could stop dogos easy, ariadna would be a very weak faction.
     
    #10 p2k, Mar 28, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2019
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  11. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    And Multi weaponary.

    And flash bots.

    So yeah (and yes I mostly used Stun ammo on Multi Weaponary to stop doggos on reactive).

    Even our TAK player was laughting as according to him all 3 games he lost with TAK recently was due his dogos getting stunned (3 games lost for him is probably in a set of 30+ games won ;P).
     
    #11 eciu, Mar 28, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2019
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  12. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    Stun ammo has little to no uses now, unless out of ITS objectives, I'd say... (since it's usually on MULTI weapons, that means forcing the target to roll BTS once, or ARM twice...)
     
  13. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

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    I'm honestly not trying to sound condescending but it sounds like this isn't a case about him using the dogs well as it sounds more like you're not deploying properly against this. Furthermore, no smoke doesn't cover roofs from the ground, so the last part is simply not true.

    Additionally I don't see why you're describing them as unkillable. You do realise they haven't actually changed, aside from flashpulse immunity and never benefit from cover? ARM 1 and ARM 3 that cant get cover isn't what anyone would classify as "tanky".
     
  14. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

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    This is true and honestly very dumb. Stun ammo was specifically made so multi-weapons had an efficient counter to Dogos. Especially Loup-Garou's... O_o
     
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  15. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Funny I have a strong memory of picture showing that (explaining how infinite high "spills over" buildings/roofs) and I cannot find it now. Apparently I was wrong on this one.
    I call tanky anything which just runs into ARO and do no even bother to dodge/shoot. Saw several times dogo doing that, never saw a TAG do that (I've did it mayby 2 times with my own TAG but that was long after I was inside enemy's DZ). Plus Flash ammo is not something you want to ignore because if your fail that damn BTS save your 3/4 W unit suddently won't be able to do anything of use this turn (and you cannot do anything more about it).
    And this is my main problem with Dogos (and everyone else's) TI.
     
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  16. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

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    Perhaps you're thinking of the wrong ruling of a judge who made that ruling on Interplanetario 2016(2015?)?

    But yeah, I can't honestly (not with a straight face at least) say that I disagree overall with the post you made above.
     
  17. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Now I'm confused again ;P
    Can't say, I think it was before that (the issue of throwing the smoke "on edge" of roof we solved few years back in our meta).
     
  18. Brother Smoke

    Brother Smoke Bureau Trimurti Representative

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    They're not that tough at all, they die to shooting like anything else, even more because they can't respond to it in any effective way other than popping smoke
     
  19. Teslarod

    Teslarod Trebuchet Enthusiast

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    It spills from the blast point, so you can have a trooper on a roof inside a ground level Smoke template by firing the smoke like 2" from the wall.
    The angle from the roof's edge/railing towards the Blast focus will be enough so the missing 0.5" Smoke radius touches the guy on the roof (assuming a building with 1-2 stories, 3+ will be tricky).

    Blocking a single ARO piece with an Impetuous Smoke so a secondary Impetuous model gets to be safe is also fairly easy (as long as you can establish which way you'll have to move the second model).
    An Irmandinho chugging ground level Smoke so the Dog Warrior jumping on a roof can't be seen by a TR bot is easy to set up (assuming you don't fail the first Smoke).
     
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  20. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Ok, so probably that's what I had in memory.