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How to fix Pano

Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by Zsolt, Jul 21, 2018.

  1. Ayadan

    Ayadan Knight of the TAG Order

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    The thing is, as I remember, anyone of us wanted a Tohaa diplomat-like trooper at all. We wanted someone that could be an alternative trooper to Machinist or a rearline engineer while the Machinist could be a little more aggressive. We didn't even think about Flash Pulse back at that time.

    To be honest, I'm ok to find them on the field but I find it not PanO at all to bring in a Spec Op a guy/girl that is not supposed to be trained for it except if his/her skills match with the needs of the operation (here fix things accurately). As the Tech Bee is today, I find her odd.

    @Death : I'm really curious to know why you think Locust and Black Friar are so bad. Because you can't say that there isn't a lot of tech in them.
     
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  2. Death

    Death Well-Known Member

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    They are clearly subpar units meant only for their sectorial. In Generic Pano, you'll most likely pick the Nisse and Crocmen over them since they are similar in cost with the same role but worst.

    For their own sectorial they are decent but not ideal for their role. Its like comparing the Kanren KHD to the Ninja KHD. The Kanren is sufficient for the role but not ideal like the Ninja KHD. The only difference is that Kanren has more toolbox profiles to use so it has some use in generic Yu Jing.
     
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  3. Riquende

    Riquende Well-Known Member

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    What's pretty good right, in fact it's actually brilliant, is that if PanO got new stuff in the form of some the awesome ideas here and elsewhere then you'd STILL be able to enjoy what PanO is right now, and other players would be happier as well.

    I feel now like you've been told this for years and yet you still feel the need to go on carping about people wanting something a little different from the +1BS/MSV/Mimetism norm.

    For the record - love the MR Black Friar, accept the MSR has a place in MO, love the BSG/MMR Locust. More please.
     
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  4. Ayadan

    Ayadan Knight of the TAG Order

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    @Death No, I can't agree with you. For BF, you only see the Sniper profile while I see the MULTI rifle one too. Your Nisse Combi+LSG will never impose the threat of a BF in midfield and make such a mess alone. You can't walk through the table without needing to get rid of a any MSV in overwatch, your Nisse will struggle or fail to detect and eliminate any Impersonated trooper or a HI/TAG. If you want a MSV with a MULTI weapon, there is not such cost effective one than BF in both Vanilla and NCA.

    As for Locust, the Croc is the best of the two for mining and specialist oriented scenarios. But to kill people early in the game, the Locust is just better. You have MMR or BSG+grenades+DB for that. Even the Breaker combi is highly effective due to the general lack of BTS among a lot of troopers compared to ARM. Just play with his strengths and weaknesses. Put some Peacemaker or Hexa/Swiss Guard to watch what is coming for him and put him a hard-to-reach place if you go second and enjoy.
     
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  5. Golem2God

    Golem2God Just a Kooky Kumotail serving others.

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    @Ayadan I agree with you on all counts concerning the Tech-Bee. I always felt that CB dropped the ball when releasing her.
     
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  6. Death

    Death Well-Known Member

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    I generally try not to walk any 4-2 unit to midtable. Its too order expensive and the BF w/ Multi Rifle isn't as good at winning face to face rolls as the Nisse. I think the BF already struggles to counter Impersators. Your opponent will find a way to get around that BF.

    As for the Locust, its good but generally I'd take a crocmen FO because it can be both a good attacker (even with a combi rifle) and a specialists. Its the flexibility of the crocmen FO that pulls it ahead of the locust. If you want a pure attacker with ODD then your better off with a Bulleteer than a Locust since REM can be buffed.
     
    #126 Death, Jul 27, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2018
  7. Ayadan

    Ayadan Knight of the TAG Order

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    @Golem2God Yes. While I'm not a fond of the min-maxing any profile, even the PanO ones, I would have found interesting to have competent Engineer on the repair field while helpless in combat (things like the Designated Target or the Warcor) without a Flash Pulse in order to not trick my opponent in the same way Mushashi does. A regular trooper like this could cost 10-11 points and would be an interesting alternative to the Machinist because she would need a lot of care due to the fact she could be killed easily if not defended.
     
    #127 Ayadan, Jul 27, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2018
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  8. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    If folks want other things outside of what it appears CB has decided fit PanO, why don’t they play something that has them, rather than feeling the need to go carping on about how CB should fit its vision of PanO to the forum’s? If you want something different than BS+1/MSV1/2/3/Mimetism norm, then play something else.
     
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  9. Skoll

    Skoll Well-Known Member

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    Carlos is on record saying there is currently no plan to resculpt other knights as they consider the community to have spoken and only value hospitallers
     
  10. Death

    Death Well-Known Member

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    Because every other faction in the game has gotten units that have expanded their gameplay options (often eliminating limitations they use to have) except Pano. We just want the same treatment as every other faction in the game.
     
  11. Death

    Death Well-Known Member

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    That must be the same way Yu Jing players have "spoken" and don't value JSA units. Sigh.
     
  12. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead

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    Because we want our chosen faction to be fun to play (all factions should be!), instead of looking elsewhere?

    More recent addons are a mixed bag. Locusts are ok - not awesome, but perfectly playable and opening new possibilities for NCA. BF is actually two different units rolled into one - MR is awesome toolbox, MSR is another unimaginative MSV2 sniper. Bolts... if they were a beer they could've been poured back into the horse, leaving the world a better place.

    Tech Bee requires a special mention, because of how extremely botched this unit is. I fully agree that it's useful, pretty much like a second WarCor would be. But if we want to treat her like a unit in her own right, then she's crap. And if CB's usual pool of playtesters was happy with her, then it's an indication that it needs to be expanded to include different perspectives as well.

    Just like Death, and many before him, said - other armies received units that expanded their basic gameplay, making armies more rounded, though still distinct. PanO gets crap.
     
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  13. Ayadan

    Ayadan Knight of the TAG Order

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    Well, the thing is, that there are profiles that scream to be designed for sectorials (Kamau and BF MSR) but hopefully the unit provide an alternative for Vanilla too. So I wouldn't complain about it. Vanilla will use Nisse and/or Bagh-Mari while NCA and MO will use BF. That's fine to me. Other factions have this type of profile even if it is not as visible as PanO Snipers (see Nomads hackers).
    As about Bolts, I think it is more about the player than the unit itself. Yes, they need Multiterrain and have the DB costing the same as BF but the rest of the unit is pretty good. With all those mines, Red Furies, Shock MMR and E/M LGL linked, Bolts are gaining room to show up. Maybe your meta doesn't always allow them to shine but I've seen them rocking more than one time because my opponent couldn't provide an effective way to deal with them. Like TAGs, you need to play with and around them though.
     
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  14. Golem2God

    Golem2God Just a Kooky Kumotail serving others.

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    I guess that is one way/reason I'm attracted to PanO. Playing or beating someone with a force/faction thats sub-optimal is interesting in my perspective. Of course I want PanO to get some nice upgrades to make them less bland but @Ayadan's point of seeing Bolts shine in a few circumstances is another good point in the conversation. We just need more skills/loadouts that allow Bolts, KotHS, Auxbots & other less used aspects of PanO to get their time on the tabletop instead of sitting around collecting dust or being sold off on ebay.
     
  15. Death

    Death Well-Known Member

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    Its kind of sad to me that a supposed "high-tech" faction is really the sub-optimal faction someone might play for extra challenge. :(
     
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  16. Golem2God

    Golem2God Just a Kooky Kumotail serving others.

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    That is sad to hear. The reason people "value" the Hospitallers over the other Knights is because CB designed MO's links in a way that makes the most famous & bigger of the Knight Orders in Infinity lore the "best" option. Therefore more people will play/use that link/unit over the rest, Santiago & Order Sergeants.
    Agreed. Winning with them seems like playing on hard mode outside of shooting at the enemy.
     
  17. ThananRollice

    ThananRollice Your Friendly Neighborhood Locust
    Warcor

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    I do believe that PanO is stuck in certain situations where our only option is to shoot our way out. In many of my recent friendly games against Haqqislam and Tohaa, my biggest problem has been trying to keep my opponents out of retreat.

    Last night, I played Highly Classified and couldn't get any of my specialists up to the HVT without first killing everything in my way. This put my opponent into retreat, which meant I was out of time and orders to get the job done fully. The game ended up only being 2-0 for me.

    It's in times like these where I wish I had smoke to block lines of fire, or some non-lethal option to keep my opponent on the table.

    I love PanO, but it does feel like we are streamlined towards max damage sometimes.
     
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  18. Golem2God

    Golem2God Just a Kooky Kumotail serving others.

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    @ThananRollice Was it 2-0 in your favor? Sounds like you did well in clearing the board at least.
    Max damage can only carry a Hyperpower so far. PanO needs other options besides shooting itself out of any paperbag they get stuck in. Even if it just one unit or a certain loadout that can do something it would be better than nothing or what the faction's current state is.
     
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  19. ThananRollice

    ThananRollice Your Friendly Neighborhood Locust
    Warcor

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    Yes, I can thank my Squalo for that. I took a long, hard look at the table and determined the only way to win the game was to end it on turn 2. Literally marched up the board with no cover and killed everything in sight. Final order placed him next to the enemy HVT to secure it.
     
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  20. Shoitaan

    Shoitaan Well-Known Member

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    The more you mentally visualise this, the more I feel this is what the hyperpower was designed to be and largely is.

    "Fuck your subtle strategy, I'm coming through."

    Which is its own kind of fun although less 'interesting' than the other factions. But the problem is as you've demonstrated, in terms of the extent of victory, 2vp isn't going to help you all that much at the end of a tournament. In a stark contrast to almost every other game ever, killy is not the same thing as competitive and that IS a problem for us that just doesn't seem to get addressed for game balance. Now given NCA won that tournament in las vegas this year(?) I can't harp on this point too much. In fact I often times wonder if I'm must playing the faction wrong. Maybe it is a case of trying to force the wrong playstyle on this faction. A tank will never play (efficiently) like a support character. Maybe I need to embrace it and move on....
     
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