Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by Zsolt, Jul 21, 2018.
Why do we have to lose some of our BS skills, when nobody else is losing theirs?
Because PanO is well balanced, if we're talking about power levels.
If we want to get more toys, options, available tactics, etc, then we need to balance it with something. We can't just wish for our stuff to get better and that's it.
Alternatively, our problem children could get fixed when other factions are getting new stuff. I would be completely satisfied if instead of creating new units for PanO - in the next book for example - CB would instead rework those that need it.
For some reason I don't fell like that, is true any more, but I could be wrong or doing something wrong and I'm also new to PanO. I know when I play Tohaa I have that feeling of a balanced army.
I'm curious if you are referring to internal faction balance or external game balance. I'd argue that PanO overall as a faction is no stronger or weaker than any other overarching faction in the game. But there's a good deal of weird internal unit balancing that vaults some specific models head and shoulders above anything else, so I'd say our internal balance is skewed heavily towards a small percentage of exceptional models.
I think bringing up multiple profiles to the correct levels they should occupy shouldnt necessitate a nerf to existing profiles.
I dont think the kriza saw any nerf to nomad hacking or that tarik made haqq doctors any worse.
@andre61, @MrNailbrain: I'm talking about external balance. PanO has no problem winning games, as far as I know. Internal balance on the other hand...
Then again we're asking for quite a lot of tweaks. It goes beyong getting a single new, powerful unit.
Helots are probably BS11 and WIP13, baseline.
Tbh I think they'll end up being similar statlines to shasvastii - lower phys and armour than their human masters, but make up for it in other ways.
Guys seriously.... DZ bound BS11 WIP13 Helots? We're talking cheaper than a Zero. Gotta keep the BS12 to scale the cost for Camo
This we don't know yet.
Id argue that they are fair fixes that should already exist. Id also not begrudge other factions getting similar profile fixes were necessary.
Something to fix internal balance of shikami( perhaps infiltrarion) , something to fix brigadas.
Basically patching what needs it
I point anyone thinking that BS11 would result in a discount to the Hexa......BS12 and still paying for higher
I think the problem is the argument around BS +1 is faulty. It’s not a free stat and by itself it’s means fairly little in the overall conceptualization of the game. There is a reason that the Swiss Guard is considered such a dreaded piece for us, the aquilla less so and nobody is really going whole hog over the Guarda. Mods quickly mitigate or negate ballistic skill advantages against most of our troops. Further several factions share similarly stated profiles and benefit from various synergies or extra equipment without it being overwhelming to the game such as the Intruder vs the Nisse or Noctifier vs Hexa.
As for the arguments around smoke, I will say that smoke won’t necessarily win you games but not having it can lose you some. About a year ago I played a game where my opponent through luck and good decisionmaking managed to eliminate my heavy weapons in his first turn. The way the board was setup meant that I wasn’t going to be able to really do anything since I couldn’t clear out his aro presence with combirifles at bad ranges. Simply put, Pano has to play the map as it lies where other factions can bring options to manipulate the play field. This is not taking into consideration such things as smoke+intuitive attack which Haqq can do on the cheap. If given smoke Pano would still be the worst at this combination with wip 12 or 13. When we go after objectives we still have low wip specialists and no cover to give them meaning we are more likely to spend extra orders on the objective after spending orders to eliminate aro presence. That is becoming more difficult as the game moves on with better tougher gunboats such as the daiokai and the kriza and the proliferation of defensive links. This means Pano can potentially be spending even more orders clearing rather than just covering, then spending more orders on the objective giving it a further disadvantage. Compare this to Onyx, who can at least white noise MSV but no smoke for normal troops, and has access to more reliable specialists, they will tend to be more efficient at grabbing objectives.
I feel this is part of why we hear people saying that they would give up the “faction defining” +1 BS. It’s not that strong of a feature and everyone and their mother throws it at us as justification for denying anything. It makes us strong at kill missions and weak at objectives. It’s makes us good at offense and highly susceptible to disruption. It makes good at killing but not avoiding or negating. When it comes to faction design we seem to be subject to a zero sum game that few factions always abide by.
You say BS11 gives a discount ?
Guys have you seen Auxilia ?;P
I dunno, kiesotsu are 9 points base. *shrug*
I agree that every faction has units that need some fixes (I wouldn't count Shikami and Brigadas amongst them, though). We only have to look at other factions' threads about possible November updates. I just think that we're asking for more than them. My personal absolute minimum that I'd like to see fixed:
Bolts (to be useful outside their very narrow niche)
Teutons (to be useful at all)
Father-Knights (so there's a reason to field them instead of other Knights)
Combi Sepulchre (weapon upgrade)
Seraph's Auxbot (Super-Jump)
Singh (no CoC, weapon upgrade)
Rao (CoC, weapon upgrade, maybe a non-linkable version with advanced deployment)
That's seven units which would give a lot of utility to their sectorials, should they start to show up with any regularity. Optionally there are a few other units that could use an upgrade in one form or another:
Auxilia (more Auxbot types)
Aquila (some kind of Command&Control skill)
Konstantinos (weapon upgrade)
Black Friar (sniper getting BVL1 and Albedo, changing MSR for some other weapon)
Akalis and Crusaders (getting some minor tweaks to be more different)
ORCs (could get Nanopulsers, but this is pure wishlisting)
It is quite a lot.
@Judge Dredd: Please notice that I'm not talking about removing our BS advantage, or at least not in any sweeping fashion. But there are units which can get -1 BS and live, expecially if it would mean some price reduction. In general, BS isn't as strong advantage as it was in N2, where stronger attribute would break ties. I think CB is still a bit mentally stuck in the earlier era when it comes to this (or at least they were, I really want to give them the benefit of the doubt where it comes to November patch).
As for the smoke - I don't think that we really need it, especially not the Smoke+MSV trick, but at least MO really needs some alternative to get out of the DZ. More Eclipse would fit PanO tech theme and also counter other factions' MSV ARO troops.
I’m more referring to the mechanic of smoke than specifically smoke. White noise and eclipse would fall under the general parameters I put forward. I brought up smoke plus shoot because that’s seems to be the default fear. Eclipse makes sense given PanO’s enemies field a fair amount of msv either on bots or in links.
That uncomfortable moment when your frog pets are smarter than you...
Let's just call WIP "battlefield awareness" and not speak about it again :P
Also: "Frog pets"? <Helot insurgency intensifies>
According to army Auxilia are 10 points, just like the Fusiliers. The auxbot is a separate thing for 4 pts. So it seems like that G:sync and the option to take an auxbot costs the same as a +1BS bump from 11 to 12.
Keisotsu costs the same as a Moderator, Keisotsu get's +1CC,+1ARM, v:courage, while moderator gets cube, shock immunity and +3BTS. On the first blink both seem garbage, but at least cheap order monkeys.
According to fluf(f?).......sorry, just kidding.
Btw since Pano is THE professional army shouldn't we be full of CoC and Veteran, Marksmanship? And high tech should bring sensors, sixth sense and x visor where it's useful?