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How to fix Pano

Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by Zsolt, Jul 21, 2018.

  1. Teslarod

    Teslarod Trebuchet Enthusiast

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    I for one think it is funny how even Ariadna got a new type of G:Sync Antipde (with a weird ass hammer) before PanO gets another Auxbot.

    Although I'd rate it positively. An unwritten rule broken once is not so much of a rule anymore, leaves room for more Auxbot_2s or new variants in the future.
     
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  2. senso

    senso Member

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    IMO, improving Pano needs to start with a better engineer. WIP 12 is the best for a specialist? Really? Every other factions has at least one WIP 13 engineer or better. A sophotec or Dr Worm equivalent should be in PAno, for sure. And the Tech Bee upgrade was an insult. 5pts for an irregular order to boost WIP?

    Looking at Pano fluff, a combat engineer is not out of the ordinary. Again, several factions have them, so why not Pano? You'd think with all those REMS and TAGS running around, they would have figured out how to fix them in battle using elite troops...
     
  3. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

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    The PanO engineer is actually one of the most reliable engineers in the game. With so many Remote Presence units that they have access too, he gets a re-roll either through an extra order (because failing once only brings them down to unconscious level 2) or a command token, which means he has 84% chance to repair something due to re-rolls. Other factions rely on high WIP engineers for different reasons, the Clockmaker is WIP 15 because he needs to be reliable at repairing TAG’s as he doesn’t get a re-roll, if he fails. The WIP 15 Sophotech is needed in ISS because they have a lot of units with no cubes, which means no re-rolls either.
     
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  4. Teslarod

    Teslarod Trebuchet Enthusiast

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    Hate the Techbee, hate the rules, hate the model, hate everything about it.

    Still she is almost autopick.
    For PanO a 5 point Specialist with Flashpulse, Irregular or not is very useful. Consider her a worse, more expensive Warcor and she is still a speedbump, corner or AD guard.

    If you also run a TAG, a TR bot and Engineer you really get some value out of her full kit.
     
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  5. Wombat85

    Wombat85 Well-Known Member

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    I really think Pan-o should be the engineer faction, with all sorts of cool combat focused engineers. Knight engineer with panzerfaust, bolt engineer with smg, D-charges, and other interesting combinations.
     
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  6. Death

    Death Well-Known Member

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    Techbee is a little better than the Warcor since she can grab objectives. I do think that is worth her 2 extra points. I don't think she is an auto include but she is useful when you can fit her in.
     
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  7. Shoitaan

    Shoitaan Well-Known Member

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    Seems a bit of a harsh solution...
     

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  8. Titus

    Titus Varuna Beach Commando

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    I don't think PanO is bad.

    But I strongly agree with PanO being boring compared to other factions. We don't have any cool tricks, or disposable warbands to throw around, or cool leutelieuts to fight with while using CoC (sorry Joanne), or smoke...

    I am not saying we should get any of these things. I am really against factions just stealing things from other factions so their players are happy. In the end we would have all the same things to play with but with different miniatures, and that would be horrible. But maybe we should get a little something to make our PanO game more attractive and fun.

    We have some cool Knights in MO with amazing HI links. But you mostly have to play the same link to be good... And it gets boring easily.

    NCA has cool troops. But their strong point is mostly "I shoot hard" and that's it. Also you have to play fusiliers link and that's about it. No more viable fireteam options to be competitive. And in the end... You realize the best thing in the sectorial it's not the cool HIs... It's just the damned bulleteers.

    I won't talk Acontecimento because I don't know them well. And that's because I don't like what I see.

    Vanilla is probably even more boring than the sectorials. Basically it's like NCA... Except you can use crocman and Nisse, and you give up fusilier fireteam... Also, it's the only way you can play Cutter and Jotum, if you're into that.
     
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  9. Death

    Death Well-Known Member

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    Acontecimento is the most awesome Pano Sectorial. It solves a lot of the complaints I have about Pano, they have more solutions than just shooting. A decent infiltration game, some limited toolboxes, and over all far more flexibility in list construction.

    It odd that it seems to be the least played sectorial but I suspect thats because of the left over stigma from N2. The N3 updates really improved SAA viability. And SAA was still pretty good even in N2.

    Also, some people don't like mixing Pano and Aleph. But hey, its fluffy at least.

    Edit: I use to be on the side of those that said they didn't want to see Pano gain the unit types it lacks because it would make the factions too similar. I've since dropped that after watching every faction get more well rounded, except Pano.
     
    #29 Death, Jul 23, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2018
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  10. atomicfryingpan

    atomicfryingpan Well-Known Member

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    What are all the tricks/special stuff that we are missing out on?
    Smoke, warbands, and bikes are the ones I can think of immediately off the top of my head. Are there any other big ones I'm forgetting about off the top of my head?
     
  11. Death

    Death Well-Known Member

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    We lack all kinds of special skill and weapons. The only units that get to be special are Pano's TAG, super jump, climbing plus, camo. And TAGs are severely limiting on list construction.
     
  12. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    I love how basically the best compliment anyone can give Shock Army is that "it's like you're not even playing PanO."
     
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  13. derbrizon

    derbrizon Well-Known Member

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    Panonjust needs more numerous variety of ways to deny victory in the face to face rolls of BS attacks.

    I honestly think pano should have some of the most available methods for Targeting enemies to increase the to-hit spread beyong just good BS and occasional TO camo.

    I was sad when auxilia moved away from this, and I think Stuff like sniffer, sensor, and Satlock should be explored more and in new ways.

    Target beacon grenade thing? Panda/dripbear/koalathingy that causes Targeted state? Infantry with JUST the Spotlight program? Off-board artillery/orbital strike? Something that says "okay ive lined up this shot and I spent the resources to do this. You WILL get crushed under this hammer if you're not moving soon."

    These tools wpuld come on various profiles so as to promote less Rambo and more overall movement and use of a wider variety of troops. It would also be focused on letting pano - in limited but hyper-effectve fashion - absolutely deny one critical area of the table - but to do it at keep-away range, like a modern, expensive, highly precise military does it today.
     
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  14. Rey

    Rey Crabbots lead the way

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    Technically FOs are there, but most of the time they observe HVTs, unconscious enemies, consoles or tech coffins (the latter two from base contact).
    While a JTAC team would be insanely cool thematically to represent overwhelming fire support superiority and its use, it is unlikely to happen.
    Never hurts to wishlist though :)

    P.S.: Disposable FastPandOsensors / spotlights are a great idea.

    [​IMG]
     
  15. Zsolt

    Zsolt Well-Known Member

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    I didn't want discount on the line troopers. Okay, I want to have Chain rifle fusiliers (they would cost what? Chain rifles are discounted compared to combi rifles -9 to -6 pts, so Chain rifles Fusiliers would cost 1 to 4 pts), but I'm aware that won't be good for the game, so I don't want that. So having discounted weapon on cheap troops are out of bounds for Pano, I can live with that. I'm still butthurt about the dirt cheap impetuous glass cannons every other faction gets though.

    How are they discounted, if they come with a combi rifle? You can only choose one of these.

    That wasn't me :) Hexa would lose marker state, I wouldn't put them in a link. Doesn't make sense.

    Yu Jing can do all of that, they have everything Pano can't have because of basic design decision, because giving those to a high tech faction would be op. They have 5 pts Shalins with Chain rifle and smoke, 5 pts regular order Kuang Shi (with a big drawback of corse, they'll just start to run around no matter what, but still), they have S2 HI that are in the same league as ours, and as you wrote better stats than the S5 HI of poor factions that live in the stone age. They also get big discounts on those HI (take a look at Wu Ming, it comes in the 25-39 range). They have regular Camo (though not cheap, which is the good thing in camo).

    Obviously this all comes with drawbacks. Like Wu Ming is not the best HI out there, Kuang shi without a link team will die in a few turns, and if you link them, you can't have a proper link team. Shaolins have no drawback, they are cool (apart from having the most expensive chain rifle in the game for -6pts off a combi rifle, but they are already dirt cheap so it's fine), Camos are expensive, Guilang costs as much as a TO FO order sergeant (though comes with a visor).

    Compared to Pano Yu Jing has a -1BS and +1WIP. Clearly BS is useful in a lot more situations than WIP, but a single point there won't win the game (though definitely help). Considering this faction wide difference the Hac Tao is the same troop as the Swiss with better loadouts (KHD option is straight up better than not having it, the "I am the boss now" executive order is just cool, not sure if actually useful, though it can work as a 1 pt pseudo CoC coming out of HD with an alert), they have the -1BS, +1 WIP and some bloat to make up in points (Kinematika, +4CC, Nanopulser).

    Let's take a look at other, actually high tech factions, like Aleph and CA. They both have lot of expensive an effective good toys, and all the stuff that Pano is missing.

    It's seems that Pano's thing were created considering only the other original (as I know Aleph was added to the game a bit later army wise) human sphere troops, it being the high tech faction, so not getting smoke and warbands, but then Aleph and CA arrived, ignoring all that. So Pano is high tech compared to Ariadna and Haqqislam, but not much else.

    For example Aleph has Myrmidons, which is a 16 pts regular frenzied warband with chain rifle and smoke (and ODD, because well, high tech).

    So the point I try to make here, it's totally possible to design a faction considering it's advantages and drawbacks without them missing half the game. There's no reason why Pano should miss having smoke, some kind of warband (not necessarily the 5 pts version), most of the new weapons and half the special skills in the game. There are examples of other factions where they have the toys we have, but don't miss on others.

    Imo Gabriel had the nice kind of bloat. He could do anything, pretty well. Then that changed when KHDs came around, and now he has a hard counter in every army possible, 60pts are a lot to pay for that. Before KHD I used him a few matches, and liked what he could accomplish (BS14 specialist with a spitfire, 2 wounds and some cc skills).

    Obviously they need proper design, they just don't seem to be getting one. It seems there are lot more knights than interesting ideas and roles for them CB can come up with.

    Bland, boring, useless, but at least it can shoot (and maybe it'll receive a mimetism upgrade)

    My main problem with the Aquilla is that it's expensive, and without the MSV3 it's just a BS15 HI for a lot of points, and that MSV3 will be useful only in some situations. Even there are better tools for some stuff that an MSV3 does, like the Sensor + sniffer net. You are paying a lot of points and don't get much in return. Adding more expensive sills, like CoC or Advanced command or strategos won't really help with that imo.

    Yes. My intention here was to create some thread where we can put together the working ideas, not singlehandedly solve Panos problems.
     
  16. Zsolt

    Zsolt Well-Known Member

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    Specialist operative is a 1 pt skill, and Tech bee got -1WIP for that. +1BS for her useless pistol and -1PH so she dodges worse. I really hope that the +1WIP to engineers skill doesn't cost a point.

    Even though are engineer is bad, it's not exactly horrible, if you have Command tokens, they have a decent chance to heal, though command tokens are a limited and scarce resource, so you can't rely on them being around forever. After that, we are just stuck with the worst engineer in the game.

    In my opinion the problem with the engineer is that it's bad (WIP12), for that it's expensive (15pts), and still has AVA 1, so you can't even go around make classified missions, because you need your crappy dude alive to fix up your TAG or REMs or whatever. They are just bad in all the areas, the only thing saving them a bit is G:Remote presence. Just look at Kosuil, what kind of engineers are out there (and they don't really have anything to repair in the first place).
     
  17. Zsolt

    Zsolt Well-Known Member

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    We are covered here with EVO hacker + bunch of Fugazi + Pathfinder. Walk up with 3-4 bots with sniffers, deploy sniffers, reveal all camos or Sat lock on WIP 13 (opponent reseting though, so that would be a bunch of orders). The only thing that should be added here is AVA3 on Fugazi as in sectorials. With WIP13 it's a bit hard to pull of sat lock though (especially without EVO hacker).
     
  18. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead
    Warcor

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    I also think we're pretty well covered when it comes to support. We have ready access to re-rolls, so -1 WIP doesn't hurt as badly. What I'd like is to see better access to frontline support, like expensive HI Docs/Engineers able to go with a link, or linkable Machinists/Trauma Docs, or linkable Palbots v2, which could be activated either with a link team without activating Engineer, or with an Engineer without activating the link.
     
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  19. andre61

    andre61 Well-Known Member

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    I would like to see the Black friar and the Locust get some type of martial arts or natural born warrior.
     
  20. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead
    Warcor

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    I found this both elsewhere and relevant:

    [​IMG]
     
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