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How to fix Pano

Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by Zsolt, Jul 21, 2018.

  1. Keyrott

    Keyrott Nomad Handyman

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    That's a really good way to put it, and I was definitely missing the point of the thread so thank you. Upon thinking about it more I think I realized why I like Nomads so much. It's because I can do just about everything that I want to in the game with them, and they're not so laser focused on doing one thing that they don't get to have fun.

    Intruders are fantastic because they not only have the powerful MSV2, they include the protection of Camo marker state which can be an insane combo. They're assault units specialized in breaking into unknown areas and dealing with anything that gets in their way, so they have the MSV2 in case that thing is camo, and they have the marker state for their own protection. Very cool and flavorful.

    You could have a very plain S5 HI in the Taskmaster, but instead they pack huge nanotec templates, crazykoalas, and shock weapons. They have to deal with the freaks and mutants that come out of the Praxis Black Labs, and they feel like it in game. Their huge hulking armor combined with something for just about anything makes you FEEL like these guys can throw down with anything the labs can puke out.

    We just got Hecklers which are some of the coolest midfield skirmishers I could imagine, having varied and interesting loadouts where I can see a purpose and reason for each. Their job is to cause as much chaos and havoc as possible, and I really think they deliver in both fluff and rules between the Jammers and E/Marats and Pandas oh my!

    What I'm trying to get at is that Nomads are the Hacking faction and they've also been seen as the MI faction, and they really do have interesting and great options in both those areas, but that doesn't seem to stop them from having unique and fun options in other areas. They also aren't tied down by being part of the "+1" attribute club that seems to be much more restrictive than I think CB should be with it.


    I really want to like PanOceania and it's been mentioned too many times but to me the focus on the BS leads to overlap in design, is no longer a sufficient enough advantage to hold people's attentions for long, can lead to boring playstyles, and a focus on "optimization" leads to a lack of anything someone might consider points bloat or unnecessary. +1 BS and -1 Fun.

    Why can't PanO have specialists that are pretty damn good at their jobs but suck when they're called to do anything but that, or anything that requires innate talent? A more expensive WIP 12 Engineer with an advanced repair device that grants +3 when making engineering rolls to repair units, but they still make WIP 12 rolls when grabbing and completing objectives? A WIP 12 FO MI that has a much more advanced spotlight that has a sniper's range for their +3 band. Give them a midfield WB denial unit with a Breaker version of CrazyKoalas and call them ZapDingos. Hell, give them a WIP 12 Jammer on an infiltrating operative with Holo 2 or something.

    Push the technology edge. Make it so that it's a bunch of normal humans in amazingly futuristic technology that relies on their hyper-advanced equipment to do their jobs well rather than being innately talented or superhuman. Show me what the hyper-power can do with all those resources and all that technology. Give me more Iron Man and less Lead Man
     
    #181 Keyrott, Jul 28, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2018
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  2. Talkkno

    Talkkno Active Member

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    The issue I see it feels kind of that Aleph takes up a lot of potential PanO design space; since there's a reasonable point anything fancy tools that PanO gets; Aleph should also get.
     
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  3. Golem2God

    Golem2God Just a Kooky Kumotail serving others.

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    Yep. That is what this thread was created for. We already have threads that converse about PanO's viability in ITS and this is not one of them.
    Exactly. That is where all the complaints about lacking certain skills &/or loadouts comes from. Not from wanting PanO to get buffed into the stratosphere.
    Hackers:
    PanO:
    8 Assault Hackers (MSV-L1+Mimetism=Bagh-Mari, Religious+Combat Jump=Sikh Commando. Religious+Martial Arts L3=Fersen. Religious+Assault+Kinematika L1=Father Knight.
    T.O. Camo=Swiss Guard T.O. Camo+X-Visor+Infiltration+Multi-Terrain=Croc Man. ODD+Infiltration+Multi-Terrrain+Stealth=Locust. Orcs.)
    7 Normal Hackers (Jungle Terrain=Regulars. T.O. Camo=Hexa. Aquatic Terrain+Mimetism=Kamau, Religious=Order Sergeants. Bioimmunity+Veteran L1=Bolts. MSV-L2+Mimetism=Nisse. Fusiliers.)
    1 Killer Hacker (T.O. Camo=Hexa)
    Yu Jing:
    8 Assault Hackers
    (Multi-Terrain+Mimetism=Tiger Soldier. Camo+Infiltration=Daofei. Camo+Infiltration+Multi-Terrain+MSV-L1=Guilang. Martial Arts L3+Kinematika L2=Crane Agent.
    Kinematika L1=Shang Ji. Holoprojector L2+Forward Deployment L2+Martial Arts L1=Kanren.
    T.O. Camo+Kinematika L1=Hac Tao.
    T.O. Camo+Kinematika L1+Infiltration+Multi-Terrain+Martial Arts L3=Ninja)
    4 Normal Hackers (Celestial Guard, Zhanshi. Martial Arts L2+Kinematika L1=Pheasant Agent. Bioimmunity+Sixth Sense L2=Zhanying.)
    3 Killer Hackers (Holoprojector L2+Forward Deployment L2+Martial Arts L1=Kanren.
    T.O. Camo+Kinematika L1=Hac Tao.
    T.O. Camo+Kinematika L1+Infiltration+Multi-Terrain+Martial Arts L3=Ninja)
    Haqqislam:
    5 Assault Hackers (Religious=Barid. Religious+Combat Jump+V:Dogged=Ragiks. Fatality L1+Veteran L1=Druze. Camo+Infiltration+Multi-Terrain=Al Hawwa. T.O. Camo+Infiltration+Multi-Terrain=Tuareg)
    5 Normal Hackers (Mechanized Deployment=Halqa. Religious=Barid. Religious+MSV-L1+Veteran L1=Govads. MSV-L2+Multi-Terrain+Regeneration=Djanbazan. Ghulam.)
    4 Killer Hackers (Religious=Barid. Religious+MSV-L1+Veteran L1=Govads. Fatality L1+Veteran L1=Druze. Leila Sharif)
    Nomads:
    10 Assault Hackers (ODD+Hyper-Dynamics L1+Climbing Plus=Mary Problems.
    Mimetism+V:Courage+Smoke Launcher+Motocycle=Zondnautica. Super Jump+Religious=Hollow Men.
    T.O. Camo+Infiltration+Multi-Terrain=Spektrs.)
    (ODD+Religious=Reverend Custodiers, Reverend Morias.)
    (Multi-Terrain+V:Courage=Wildcats. Superior Combat Jump+Zero-G+V:Courage=Hellcats.
    (Camo+Infiltration+Multi-Terrain=Bandits, Zeros)

    7 Normal Hackers (Alguaciles. Shock Immunity=Moderators.)
    (CounterIntelligence+Marionette+Hyper-Dynamics L2+Lo-Tech A+Number 2=Puppet Masters & Puppetbots. Veteran L1=Securitate.)
    (Engineer+ODD+Repeater+FO+Sat-Lock+Sensor=Zoe & Pi-Well.)
    (Camo+MSV-L2+Multi-Terrain=Intruders. V:Courage=Mobile Brigida)

    6 Killer Hackers (Interventors. Szalamandra Pilot. Limited Camo+Mimetism+Forward Deployment L1=Hecklers.
    ODD+Hyper-Dynamics L1+Climbing Plus=Mary Problems.)
    (Camo+Infiltration+Multi-Terrain=Bandits, Zeros)
    2 Hacking Plus Devices (Interventors. ODD+Religious=Reverend Custodiers)
    Combined:
    8 E.I. Assault Hackers (Transmutation+V:Courage=Sygmaa Fraacta)
    (Hyper-Dynamics L1+Kinematika L2+Protheion L4+Super Jump+V:NWI=Umbra Samaritan)
    (Mimetism+Super Jump=Morat Rodok, Mimetism+Infiltration+Multi-Terrain=Morat Zerat)
    (AutoMedKit+Limited Camo=Shasvastii Caliban, AutoMedKit+T.O. Camo+Infiltration+Multi-Terrain=Shasvastii Malignos, AutoMedKit+Camo+Infiltration+Multi-Terrain=Shasvastii Shrouded, Nanoscreen=Shasvastii Gwailos)

    6 E.I. Normal Hackers (Morat Vanguard, MSV-L2=Morat Yaogat.) (V:Courage+Hyper-Dynamics L1=Nexus Operatives)
    (T.O. Camo+V:Dogged=Shasvastii Noctifers) (AutoMedKit+MSV-L2+Sixth Sense L1+V:Courage=Sygmaa Maakrep)
    (Memonica+T.O. Camo+V:NWI=Anathematics)

    2 E.I. Killer Hackers (Minelayer+Repeater=Bit & Kiss. Bioimmunity+Kinematika L1+Hyper-Dynamics L1+V:Courage=Kerr-Nau)
    3 Hacking Plus Devices (Martial Arts L4+Mimetism+Forward Deployment L1+Kinematika L1+V:NWI=Umbra Legate.)
    (Memonica+Mimetism+Strategos L2+V:NWI=Skiavoros. Memonica+V:NWI=Charontids)
    Aleph:
    7 Assault Hackers (V:Courage=Danavas. Martial Arts L3=Ekdromoi, Myrmidons. T.O. Camo=Dasyus, Post-Human MK2. Camo=Naga. Jungle Terrain=Scylla.)
    4 Normal Hackers (V:NWI=Deva, Post-Human MK1, Thamyris. Jungle Terrain=Scylla)
    2 Hacking Plus Devices (V:Courage=Danavas. MSV-L3+V:NWI=Asura)
    3 Killer Hackers (T.O. Camo+V:NWI=Dasyus. Camo+V:Dogged=Naga. Jungle Terrain+Devabots=Scylla)

    Ariadna & Tohaa barely have any hacking presence whatsoever. Ariadna only has the Wardriver & the Tohaa have a Kamael White Hacking Device & Aelis Keesan who is a Killer Hacker.

    Combat Jump:
    PanO: 3 (Religious=Sikh. Religious+Zero-G=Crusader. Martial Arts L2+CoC+Religious=Singh)
    Yu Jing: 1 (Multi-Terrain+Mimetism=Tiger Soldier)
    Ariadna: No Combat Jump units but they have 5 choices for airborne units. (Tactical Jump=Van Zant. Airborne Infiltration=Mirage-5. Parachutist=Para-Commandos, Airborne Rangers, Spetsnazs)
    Haqqislam: 1 unit of each kind of air deployment (Combat Jump=Ragiks. Airborne Infiltration=Hakims. Parachutist=Bashi Bazouks)
    Nomads: 2 units, 1 character, 1 remote (Airborne Infiltration=Carolta Kowalsky, Tomcats. Combat Jump=Meteor Zond, Superior Combat Jump=Hellcats)
    Combined: 4 plus the Imetron (Sygmaa Fraacta, Shasvastii Cadmus, Morat Rasyat, Ko Dali)
    Aleph: 3 plus Netrods (Martial Arts L3+Super Jump=Diomedes, Ekdromoi. Mimetism=Garuda)
    Tohaa: 1 (Symbiont Armor=Gar Tarsos)

    Infiltration:
    PanO: 4 (Infiltration=Konstantinos. T.O. Camo+Religious=Order Sergeant. T.O. Camo+X-Visor+Infiltration+Multi-Terrain=Croc Man.
    ODD+Infiltration+Multi-Terrrain+Stealth=Locust)
    Yu Jing: 3 (Camo+Infiltration=Daofei. Camo+Infiltration+Multi-Terrain+MSV-L1=Guilang.
    T.O. Camo+Kinematika L1+Infiltration+Multi-Terrain+Martial Arts L3=Ninja)
    Ariadna: 7 Normal & 4 Inferior (Infiltration=Moblots, Uxia McNeill Camo=S.A.S., Chasseurs, Foxtrots, Scouts. Ambush Camo=Hardcases, Superior Infiltration=Uxia McNeill Inferior=Jacques Bruant, Metros, Volunteers, Grunts)
    Haqqislam: 1 Inferior & 5 Normal (Inferior=Dayami. Infiltration=Yasbir, Al Hawwa, Farzans, Hunzakuts, Tuaregs)
    Nomads: 5 (Camo=Prowlers, Bandits, Zeros. Mimetism=Moran. T.O. Camo=Spektrs)
    Combined: 4 (Inferior Infiltration=Shasvastii Caliban. Infiltration= Shasvastii Malignos, Shasvastii Shrouded, Morat Zerat)
    Aleph: 4 (ODD+360* Visor=Thrasymedes. T.O. Camo+V:NWI=Dasyus, Post-Human MK2. Camo+V:Dogged=Naga)
    Tohaa: 2 (T.O. Camo=Igao, Camo=Clipsos)
     
    #183 Golem2God, Jul 28, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2018
  4. Andre82

    Andre82 Well-Known Member

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    Space Knights and Tags just don't do it for you I take it?

    What you are describing is a feeling so I can't say your wrong, only when I am driving PanO I did not seam to have this kind of issue. This is probably in part because I play almost every faction and I have no real loyalty to any one, they are all just a tool box to me.
     
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  5. Golem2God

    Golem2God Just a Kooky Kumotail serving others.

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    Well I'm glad that you feel that way. As you can see many of the player base isn't and wishes/hopes for CB to throw the faction some sort of meaningful tool or unit upgrade/rework.
     
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  6. CabalTrainee

    CabalTrainee Well-Known Member

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    I just started dabbling into Haqq. And boy coming from PanO it really feels crazy. Whenever i do a PanO list it feels like i'm always using the same units (and whenever you see lists on the forum they are very similar). Sure those are great. I mean i haven't seen anyone ever claiming Swiss guard is bad. But when i do a Haqq list i feel like i actually can pick units freely.

    Need a skirmisher? Cheap one? Hunzakut? Need it more reliable? Al Hawwa. Some really nasty thing? Tuareg.

    Want to eat up enemy orders? Daylami. With smoke? Ghazi.

    List goes on. The only dead units are mostly the linkable ones if you don't link them.

    In PanO it feels like every PanO list is the same.
    For vanilla for example i hardly see a list that is not in its core:
    Auxilia+Swiss guard+Nisse+Fugazi+Sensor Regular+Croc men

    Maybe its bad that i went straight to Haqq which is obviously one of the most versatile armies. But it still feels like chains fallen off from me when it comes to list building.
     
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  7. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Why use plural, are there any other knights bar Hospitaller+Magister link ?
     
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  8. Judge Dredd

    Judge Dredd Well-Known Member
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    If I was to focus on a specific area of Pano to fix I would prefer to fix MO as there are some basic things that can be done to help and it needs a deeper thought process for many of its flailing units.


    Father Knight:

    This guy should be linking in some far far better way. I think if he was allowed to form up 5 man Teutonic links and/or 5 man magister links he might start showing up in my lists. As with many knights the CC aspect plays way too safe imo and should be improved at least a little. MA of some stripe would help. Otherwise I think he needs command skills. Strategoes lvl 1 or maybe some CoC profile to show off his officerness.


    Montesa:

    I don’t feel like montesa have a strong presence in MO as a viable choice. Since taking them as your primary Knight excludes so muh I think they need a little boost to make compelling. A haris option should make them significantly more appealing and perhaps a FO profile to give them a specialist option. This would add punch to them that doesn’t help their spe fire and doesn’t require a weapons overhaul. A 150 haris center field could be quite risky to field especially since their defenses are rather low. Again just maybe a little push in CC to make their already invested CC stats and gear worth while otherwise it’s just desperate defense against warbands.


    Teutonics:

    What can be said about them that hasn’t already been said. I think that these guys need a complete retool to look more like jungle fighters. Combi light flamethrower would be a much better base weapon for thematic purposes than just a combi. Perhaps dropping the combi altogether for a heavy flame thrower or boarding shotgun option. Molotok or red fury option instead of the plain spitfire and perhaps a HRL profile to cover range. I feel these weapons make sense in a jungle setting and well represent weapons to fight against CA. Toss them a paramedic for a specialist as they’re just about as good as a doctor and could represent the need to heal in the thick of it. Beyond that I think they should pull back on the shooting elements a bit perhaps dropping them down to BS 13 and focusing them as premier melee options. Eclipse smoke and either martial arts or nbw combined with their berserk to really highlight them. I wouldn’t mind them turning full impetuous either.


    Santiago:

    These guys are pretty good as it’s just the lack of range that hurts them. Give them a multi sniper option and call it a day.


    Sepulchre:

    These guys need some serious help. As the equestrian order I would love to see them on bikes. I think these guys should emphasize solo potential. Multi weapons are a must or dual wielding smgs or other badass vibe for them. Making them the hacker knights would also distinguish them and make use of their wip 14. Give them khd and maybe a hd+ profile to show the tech they got from the Templars.

    Black Friar:
    Ostensibly these guys are supposed to discover impersonators and infiltrators but the way mechanics work out means the best they can do is shoot the fiday or speculo as they kill their target. Giving them some sort of anti impersonation mine or a deployable that prevents enemy deployment in an 8 inch bubble or lets troops in its bubble ignore surprise attacks and mine layer could be a unique way to restablish their lore in game. I’ve never really been satisfied with their performance on the board as they’re too vulnerable as aro pieces or too slow to get into range.

    Templars:
    I know this is a defunct order but it should still have some more vestiges left around PanO than just DeFerson. It’s aggrivating that CB has the lore crafted so that PanO has destroyed lvl of the cool things it had access to and given to other factions. McMurrow having the better Templar CCWo f the two irks me. The uniqueness of Templar CCWs is also rather undermined by the dual wield skill. I would like to see some of that Templar tech that was looted spread around the other knightly orders as the fluff says it is. A Teutonic character as a grand master who got another Templar CCW and special armor would be awesome. The holo projector on sepulchre and the pile of tech on Santiago are fairly good representations of the tech being spread a bit but I would like to see a bit more sophistication in this area. There are a ton of untapped possibilities that are just laying around collecting dust.

    Those are my thoughts on some of the matters at hand.
     
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  9. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    This so much this, saw that with CHA and USARF as well,t eh variability int he play styles of the list was so good I Bought into TAK
     
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  10. andre61

    andre61 Well-Known Member

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    A that's how I feel when I play my Tohaa, It be nice if I had that same feeling when I play my NCA.
     
  11. Andre82

    Andre82 Well-Known Member

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    Wait when you play Tohaa you feel like you can freely use anything? Man I feel like I am going wild and off the book when I make a list that this time has THREE Clipsos!!!
     
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  12. Death

    Death Well-Known Member

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    MSV 3 should be rework so that in the active turn it doesn't need to make discover rolls but it will need to discover in ARO. I think the Aquila would get a lot more use then. The N3 nerf proved too strong. And shock needs to not negate NWI on HI, it just means a unit like Joan is paying for an unreliable extra wound. Or give such units a discount.
     
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  13. xammy

    xammy Keeper of Random Facts and Strong Opinions

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    It would be nice if MSV3 had something to increase it's killing potential even if we don't get the ability to shoot at camo markers. Maybe something like X-visor built in.
     
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  14. MrNailbrain

    MrNailbrain Relentless Optimist

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    It would be neat to have MSV3 apply the Targeted state to anything the user shoots at. I don’t know if that’s balanced or practical, but it would be real cool!
     
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  15. Death

    Death Well-Known Member

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    Since Pano is the TAG faction then we should have something similar to the Geeko. A cheap TAG version of an HI. Right now, the combine army has better TAGs then Pano. Thats right, I said it.
     
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  16. xammy

    xammy Keeper of Random Facts and Strong Opinions

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    I have to agree, but it's not because their TAGs are better profiles. Their TAGs are cost efficient, so they end up with better support and more play.
     
  17. Andre82

    Andre82 Well-Known Member

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    For once I kind of agree with you.
    I mean I don't really think a Gecko would make you happy, as is justifying a Tag when you have a Swiss can be pretty hard sometimes.
    However the combine army tags are pretty awesome, mostly the Sphinx imo.
    Personally I think the Lizard is in the wrong faction however. A Tag mount that spits out a heavy Infantry screams PanO to me.
     
  18. andre61

    andre61 Well-Known Member

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    I guess, I feel that way is because I have every Tohaa figure that CB has made, I might be wrong but it's just a feeling.
     
  19. Wombat85

    Wombat85 Well-Known Member

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    Im going to throw something here: the problem is that BS is an attriute with a very limited number of applications. Take PH for example, you can dodge, it applies to CC damage, it applies to throwing things, an army based around higher PH has some uniquness prebuilt. Lets look at BS, you can shoot, thats it. So giving a fanction its uniqness through an above average stat that only does one thing is why it is flat.

    The solution: we need more uses for BS skill. What if forward observer skills were BS based instead of WIP? Targeted on a BS roll seemed to make more sense to me then WIP. So can anyone else think of something you could use BS for?
     
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  20. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead
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    That's the thing I'm saying as well; BS - and stats in general - should be used to balance unit's strength, but not to give the unit its purpose. That purpose should come from the combination of skills, equipment and weapons. Too many PanO units are defined by their high BS, instead of their skills.
     
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