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How to fix Pano

Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by Zsolt, Jul 21, 2018.

  1. Zsolt

    Zsolt Well-Known Member

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    According to the 80% whine posts on this forum (exact stats, made them up myself), there's a general consensus among Pano palyers on the forum that Pano is boring, on the bad end of the designer's beatstick, and some parts of it (like Vanilla and MO apart from that one HI link) are even bad.

    So let's put together some ideas, how to make it good, interesting, fun, balanced and fair. It's really likely that some people in CB actually reads their forums, so there's a good chance some of this information will get through. Maybe CB hates Pano, maybe they just got bored with it, so coming up with balanced and interesting ideas may help changing that.

    Recently the whole Pano forum is a big whine train, so let's keep that thing off here and focus on the fixes, not complain about the problem. Stay positive.

    Let's try to identify the problems of Pano, find out why is it bad or boring, how did the new features and powercreep swept over it and left the hyperpower in the stone age. Try to come up with ideas that are justified, balanced and fair.

    Here are my thoughts (and some reiterations what already on the forums):

    Combi rifle.
    Combi rifle is bad, because it's mediocre and expensive, and they are all over the place. Combi rifles and Boarding shotguns are expensive compared to discount weapons which are not that bad, but costs a lot less, and we have (close to?) none of the latter. A light shotgun is not that much worse than a Boarding shotgun (templates are a lot better AP weapons than actual AP ammo, given you are shooting something in cover, which is nearly all the time. In cover template is better against targets up until ARM8, which is heavy TAG grade armor), still it's 4 pts cheaper. Similarly a Submachine gun is like 5 pts cheaper than a combi, for that it gives up 8"-16" range (which totally counts), but it can be situationally the same, like in suppressive fire (and with x-visor and ODD, hello Ryuken).

    What I'd like to see are Machinists/Trauma docs with a Light shotgun or even a chain rifle or submachine gun/assault pistol (as they are not really combatant, some PWD should suffice) instead of combi, but that won't happen, as it seems to be a design decision to put them in the 14pts range. CR is still bloat on them though.

    There are a lot of possibilities to create profiles that are situationally useful, but made cheaper with this kind of weapons. The closest thing we have now is Magister knight with Light shotgun (which also comes with a 3 pts Panzerfaust). Ryuken is a great example of this, perfectly designed around that discount weapon (and in the end not even undercosted). Cheap HI link filler examples are Domaru with chain rifles, Wu Ming with chain rifle and SMG (we have Magisters for the same role, but only for MO).

    Combi rifles on HI are horrible. Just count how many CR profiles Kriza Boracs or Taskmasters have (and ignore Hollow man's three). If our specialists game sucks because of low WIP, no smoke, maybe HI specialists with proper weapons (like the Hospitaler doctor) should be Pano's game. Just replace every CR on our HI-s with a MULTI rifle for a start, and see what else can be done there.

    KHD Father Knight with MULTI rifle maybe? It doesn't even need stealth.

    Please give De Fersen Redrum instead of Trinity, or fix KHD programs, so Redrum isn't the only one that's useable.

    Combi rifle + Light shotgun is not a bad idea, but combi rifle should be discounted in this setup, because with LS present, it's +3 on 0"-8" range is redundant. It should cost similarly as a Rifle + LS (which costs the same as a CR), the same or like 1 pts over it, not +4 pts like currently. At it's current price it's just a horrible bloat.


    Loadouts.
    We have the same old boring weapons as everyone else like Combi rifle, Spitfire, HMG, Boarding shotgun, while missing out on the shiny new toys, like SWC discounted Spitfires (Molotok, Red Fury), Marksmanrifle, that's a CR with spitfire range, Feurerbach, especially the 1SWC LI version (yeah, we have it on a TAG, so do we have "cheap" Camo on one).
    Personally I don't like MULTI sniper rifle because it costs 1.5 SWC on any platform, I'd be happy to take an 1SWC Feurerbach on any LI core link instead.
    Another similar issue is specialist profiles. For example the lone AHD on ORC or Akal. AHD is expensive, and with KHD around it's dangerous

    We need some cheap specialists on these profiles like FO or Paramedic or just SO (FO is better though as it comes with SO and flash pulse and FO for the same price, just leave your deployable repeater at home).

    Moar marksmanrifles please! It would be perfect on Fusiliers, it's like 1 pt over a combi rifle and would make those cheerleaders interesting.


    Auxilia.
    Go home Fusilier, you are drunk and forgot how to shoot. This dude has Pano WIP and ROW BS. I'm aware that this may be for balance reason, but it just annoys me that there's someone with BS11 that's not a REM without a BS weapon in Pano. And it's weird he costs the same as a Fusilier.


    Bloat.
    I'm all in for optimized, min/maxed profiles, if everyone have them in equal amounts, then it's fair, though I accept the design decision (it may be just a theory), that when CB creates a profile, they have a rough idea with a point cost, then after putting together the desired troop, they fine tune with bloat. For example if Kamau would be a Fusilier with +1BS and Mimetism, it wouldn't cost 10 pts more, just like 4 more or something. Maybe we can agree, nobody want's that. So we can't have every profile optimized out, and there are point ranges where troops have to fit, and that's fine.

    On the other hand, we have troops that are bloated to uselessness, Kirpal, Bipandra and Konstantinos come to mind, and some other troops, that are not necessarily expensive, they just don't have anything useful on them, like Bolts, Father knights, Teutons.

    In my opinion Locust's Marksmanship profile costs 1 pt extra because it has Marksmanship instead of Shock Marksman rifle with zero gain.

    I have no idea how much Inspiring leadership costs, but pretty sure there's no reason to take Joan without the LT option, so EXP ccw on V1 seems pointless, while having Joan with EXP ccw would be nice.


    Auxbot_2
    Horrible platform for a BS weapon, who thought this would be a good idea? Why? You are paying 50 pts to unlock the only smoke platform in your army, and you get BS10 for that? Why? Everything in the game throws smoke on 16 (ignore Celestial guard with BS11 and the same weapon for a moment here)! And they do that for 6 pts, not 50! Just why. Put the HFT on the auxbot where it belongs, and give the dude the ESLGL.

    If Aleph can get smoke for 16 and eclipse smoke for 40 (on PH13, not BS10), and Tohaa eclipse for 13, and everyone else for 6pts, I see no reason why Pano can't get some useful smoke platforms. Maybe strap eclipse grenades on a knight (Teutons maybe?), though that would only solve the issue for MO and Vanilla. I'm fine with having smoke in the 30+ range, just make it on a good platform, not on something that stabs itself in the eyes with it's gun (like the Swiss HMG with it's sword).

    Until then maybe give us some discount for MSV2/3, because we are missing the shoot through smoke trick?


    Magisters and Teutons
    They seem to me they are competing for the same or at least similar roles, being Pano's fire and forget warbands. Magister knights also want to be cheap HI link fillers as well (mission accomplished).

    Teutons seems to be a bit schizophrenic, as it both tries to be a BS14 gunplatform and a disposable troop with Frenzy and Berserk, without any means of delivering that EXP CC to the enemy's face, and after Frenzy kicks in getting a lot worse in shooting.

    Most of the Knight are redundant and not really useful, seems like a legacy issue to me, they were around since forever, and they are kept in the game because of them. Maybe drop a few? Like keep Montesa, Hospitalers and Magisters, fix Father Knights and drop Teutons, Sepulchre and Santiago.


    Skills.
    I don't get why Veteran isn't all over Pano. Sepulchre knights, Father knights, Swiss and Aquilla are clearly veteran troops. We have zero Advanced command, Strategos in the list, while we have clearly candidates for that. Aquilla are supposed to be trained in the best academy ever, so they should get some Strategos training (please only on Lt. profile. and maybe make a HMG LT profile), while Joan is clearly everyones favorite, so may have some nice links with HQ for that +1 command token.

    There are a lot of interesting skill out there, just throw some our way. They don't necessarily have to be on the whole troop, just some loadouts!

    Please give us some useful CoC. Like Kealtar for Tohaa. Likely the cheapest CoC anywhere, has the must have skill in the army (pokemon), comes with linkable, specialist because of CoC, and a light shotgun, which is an uncommon weapon in triads and comes with a huge point discount. Just drop the pokemon and we have a deal!

    Fluff wise TAGs have the best sensors ever, so maybe it make sense to strap some Sixth sense of them, so they can detect the Ninja ex-TO camo marker that just walked behind them exactly two seconds ago. Though that may not be the best design decision Ninja wise, so likely it won't happen.

    Be creative guys, try not to whine, and stay positive.
     
  2. Golem2God

    Golem2God Just a Kooky Kumotail serving others.

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    Those changes would help Fersen & the KotHS find a better/unique place in the faction.

    One thing I think PanO should have is being the Engineer Plus faction. We only have one Engineer in the faction as of now but I think we should get a few more (2-3) units that have that skill. I would gladly remove or revamp the Tech-Bee to make her have Engineer Plus. Having this skill would be useful for the faction while giving it a nice dose of further identity.

    Would someone like the Father Knight be good to have CoC?

    I also think the Aquila should have at least Strategos L1 considering his fluff/lore. Plus a Lt. profile for the HMG added.
     
    #2 Golem2God, Jul 21, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2018
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  3. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Exagoration. I'm myself preparing myself mentally to arrival of Varuna (and worst case scenario).
    Not exactly true, MMR skill with MMR rifle gives you option not to use shock against those few targets with Bioimmunity and higher BTS than ARM.
    Santiagos are not going anywhere as they are Spanish. Sepulchre would be sad to go as mini is cool and quite a few people like KotHS order. Teutons (while having few dedicated fans) are not that "cool" so probably most Germans and all Poles won't share a tear seeing them gone ;P
     
  4. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Say hi to 50 pts combi rifle specialist ^^

    (if not 51 pts combi rifle specialist)
     
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  5. Death

    Death Well-Known Member

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    KHD Father Knight would be AMAZING. Cybermask on a Father Knight. OMG, we'd have a CC efficient unit in Pano.
     
  6. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Honestly I think it'd be most interesting on the BSG profile.
     
  7. atomicfryingpan

    atomicfryingpan Well-Known Member

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    Gice bolts a Harris option, and all of them fatality lvl 1 maybe even x-visors. I've been playing a lot of druze lately and that faction feels like how the bolts should be.

    Probably a 0% chance of this happening but I really wish Emily handleman and knauf would be available in neoterra. Emily linking with fusiliers and maybe duoing with a hexa. Granted I know the lore reasons why it wont happen but a man can dream!

    Speaking of Hexas maybe allowing them in a link of fusiliers. It would make getting them up the board easier since they dont have infiltration. Plus I like the idea of my guys being recruited by an agent of the hexahedron for some very hush hush wetwork.

    Clippers in all the fireteams. I love it with the druze and it just seems like a no brainer.

    Father knights oh father knights how I love you so much for your looks. Easily one of my favorite models in the game and seeing him decked out in my favorite color right in the middle of that icestorm box definitely helped sell me. This guy definitely suffers from doesnt play how he looks. For all those points it's very hard to justify taking them. I had one kill kitsune in CC before though so they'll always hold a special place in my heart. I feel like they should be cheaper for sure, be able to join any link in MO, and probably have CoC or some other leadership style skill.

    Let kirpal Singh work like he used to. In the good ol days when you're LT. Died in a Rambo fiery death you could then just bring Singh on the board and be spared from loss of LT. That gave him a really cool unique kinda role. Also I though in alot of fluff they talk about him being like one of the guys who wrote the book on combat jumps. He should have superior combat jump.

    Also let the akalis be in neoterra and varuna. They look so good and I hate taking garudas.

    Smoke...yeah I'd like to have some. I mean I've gotten used to not having it but I play factions that have it and it's nice to have some other tactical options.

    I think we are gonna get an s5 heavy infantry or maybe a remote to make it different. I think alot of people really like all the s5 HI models that are coming out and I think Corvus likes making them. So I think we will see one and maybe that's what they'll use to give us smoke. A smoke grenade launcher like the al Faseed. I wont be opposed to this as I personally love all the S5's.

    So these are some of my thoughts and they popped into my head. I dont feel like cb hates us or that we are boring. I definitely think we have a very different playstyle than the other factions. In button pushing missions most factions rely on activating the objective then trying to secure it. They have the infiltrating specialists to do it well. For us we pretty much have to March our way and secure the objective first and then worry about activating it. We are very much the ranged brute force faction. Do the other factions have newer and cooler toys? Yeah I'd agree but I think we are gonna get some of our own. I think varuna is gonna be packed with cool stuff like Tunguska. It seems like CB has really been making these new factions really cool and giving them awesome options and it's like they have a new design philosophy or something. I have faith that we wont just be the give it mimetism and +1bs and call it a day faction. I think they're gonna spice up the kamau and orcs and make em less boring for varuna.
     
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  8. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    The answer is actually simple, One of the design team need to pull their head out and start being passionate about PanO as an army.

    The alternative is for CB to put their money where there mouth is and employ a designer who is passionate about PanO.

    Until one of those two things happen the problem of "Meh its a job" will persist
     
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  9. Death

    Death Well-Known Member

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    I like your optimism but I don't share your faith. The Kamau rework has already been revealed to us, they are not likely to get anything new in Varuna. This is their Varuna rework and it is mimetism and + 1BS. Now link team options could be interesting but Pano isn't known for interesting linked teams so I'm not holding my breath.

    Now, the ORC character could be really interesting but again, Pano isn't know for interesting characters besides Joan, so again, don't have much hope. IT would be great if the Orc character had a leadership skill of some kind but that would mean Pano getting nice things........and we all know the answer to that by now.

    Of course CB could use Varuna to be like Tunguska and infuse generic Pano with a lot of new interesting units but again, been with the game since its start and I've no reason to believe this will happen.

    Heres hoping I'm wrong.
     
    #9 Death, Jul 22, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2018
  10. atomicfryingpan

    atomicfryingpan Well-Known Member

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    The factions that got really interesting link teams are all new factions/sectorials. Druze, JSA, Starco, Ikari, tunguska, onyx even has some mixed. Lets also not forget they gave the French some new fireteam options. Also MO and QK were the ones with the pretty unique for the time fireteams. Does this not look like a new trend? Dont you think the TAK and OSS are gonna have cool mixed fireteams? Ramuh is probably up next and they'll probably have some new fireteams. They also just updated the Raicho profile for the Combined army. All of this points them willing to change it up and make stuff better.

    If I recall correctly the last 2 new units were the locust and black friar. The locust finally gave neoterra a midfield infiltrator and the black friar has some equipment we dont normally see. I dont think these guys are going to just do crazy massive overhauls of all the factions at once and I can understand disappointment in that but all of the new stuff seems like it's been better designed recently. As far as the kamau rework that was what? 1 or 2 years ago? Where does it say they cant change that? Just because they've shown us 1 thing doesnt mean they'll change it again. They could even have sectorial specific profiles.

    I hate to say it because it's pretty much a meme by now but I think we gotta wait and see. I think the evidence and recent actions of corvus belli show that they're gonna good with varuna.
     
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  11. Death

    Death Well-Known Member

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    Ugh, if thats true then CB has 40k's update style. The best factions are often the most recently release while older ones languish for years before getting updated.

    Infinity maybe be far better balanced than 40k but it still sucks that older sectorials are just going to be left to collect dust for years before receiving another update. Thats annoying.
     
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  12. Teslarod

    Teslarod Trebuchet Enthusiast

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    Oh boy, this is gonna suck... sorry guys.

    @Zsolt You clearly put a lot of thought in this but is missing some crucial points.
    Yes, Combis in a vacuum are shit, we agree on that. Unfortunately this is a pretty complex problem.
    Having Combi armed Linetroops, Engineers and Doctors is part what gives us access to Swiss Guards and BS15 TAGs. For a high tech faction our basic Doctor/Engineer is very affordable despite the Combi. Asking for new options here is fine, but the basic ones are more or less off limits for complaints.
    Asking for LSG+Chainrifles in PanO's arsenal is kinda insane for that reason.
    Combi Rifles on solo HI are terrible, they're pretty much only acceptable for heavily discounted Profiles or Specialist options on the better part of the Spectrum (FO, KHD, Doc, Engineer).

    Wishing for Linked Hexas is somewhat a problem as that suggests a certain disregard for boundaries in terms of what is okay to ask for and what would be plain overpowered.

    There should be downsides to a Faction, straight up suggesting cheaper Linetroops, Smoke, better Specialists means there was a lack of concern about balancing.

    Other than that there are things PanO simply doesn't do, PanO can build S2 Hi with better stats than other Factions elite S5 HI. Molotoks aren't PanO weapons... etc
    Changing the Upgrade Program for DeFeresen doesn't really fix the problem he pays for CC, Stats, a gun and the AHD without the usual discount other Knights get through Frenzy.
    Removing entire Knights instead of introducing enough variety to rival the mixed Magister Link is something I can only strongly disagree with. Imho that is the complete opposite direction than I want this to go.

    Most PanO problems are several bad design choices hitting a Profile at once. You don't notice when you're looking at them, because these terrible Profiles seem so normal.
    The Orc Hacker isn't terrible because he has an AHD or a Combi, it's because he has an AHD and a Combi with nothing else. Getting rid of the AHD or Combi could solve the problem. But he could also be saved by being the best WIP12 AHD you could ask for. Dropping to PH13, being the Tinbot Profile for Orcs and gaining a cross device Upgrade Program (either a KHD one or something more creative like Assisted Fire).
    Paying for a MSV3 isn't the Aquila's absolute problem and missing Smoke for him is just the easy way out and not the only solution. A Specialist option, a Skill, a Lt Option for the HMG and CoC elsewhere in the Faction are alternatives..

    Honesty @daboarder pretty much nailes it by saying someone at CB has to give a fuck.
    After seeing Tunguska, Tak and Vedic Profiles I'm actually certain one of the guys at CB could do a better job than us at this point. Simply because we might need several things that have yet to be invented to salvage our trainwreck.
    These threads have started to appear pretty desperate. Ideas that actually make sense have been getting scarce and we seem to be running in circles.
     
    #12 Teslarod, Jul 22, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2018
  13. atomicfryingpan

    atomicfryingpan Well-Known Member

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    What game doesn't do that though? New stuff is new stuff, for some people it just being new is gonna already make it better or more attractive. Also the #1 priority is they have to move product. If they release stuff no one buys then that's a problem. But also they learn and change their ideas and try new things out. X-wing was like that where the 1st wave of ships and abilities are radically different from the newer ones because they kept trying new designs. I haven't played League of Legends in quite a while but the new characters seemed to always be more powerful on release and then later brought back back down think about video game DLC if it's a shooter it probably has better weapons than what came in the original.

    Would it be great if after new faction release with new rules and equipment they went back through each and every faction and updated all of them at once? Yeah that would be pretty cool, maybe call it n3.2 then n3.3 followed by n3.4. I wouldn't mind something like that but I could see how some people wouldn't like it. I think that they want to wait until a book release to update all of the factions at once like what they did with humansphere n3. I assume campaign paradiso n3 will be next with new campaign and spec ops rules but will also have new stuff for each of the older factions.

    Say what you want about the 40k style releases you have to admit though that it clearly works for the game to be around that long so at the very least there is something to be said about that. I hope infinity will have the longevity that 40k has. I'm not saying that CB is perfect or that the faction doesnt have issues or design problems but I do think their latest actions give us room to be optimistic. The locust, black friar, and technically the tech bee brought us some new stuff that wasn't just mimetism and +1bs. Are those 3 units tunguska level of new and exciting? No but not much was that level of exciting around then. All this being said if varuna is a dud and nothing cool happens then I'll be right there with you guys!
     
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  14. Golem2God

    Golem2God Just a Kooky Kumotail serving others.

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    It is pretty much the same to this date.
     
  15. Ayadan

    Ayadan Knight of the TAG Order

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    I'm pretty thinking like @Teslarod that you, while having good intents, might be losing some datas in the process.
    The first thing that might be good is to have all our units priced accordingly to the new costs of equipements, weapons etc. as we see now that Drop Bears cost only 1 pt instead of 3 etc.

    Two, yes, make the combined weapons (weapon A + weapon B) costing a bit less that the addition of the two weapons separated. Why? Just because almost can't twin them while the separated ones can be twined with Booty or Panoplies.

    Three, add the MULTI rifle option to HI units (maybe with exception to Teutons). Not to the specialists ones just because it is a thing that affects everyone. We have two units with a specialist profile that wield a MULTI rifle, it is enough as Yu-Jing as just one more than us. We have a HI specialist wielding an heavy weapon and that's something strong.

    Four, don't forget that you don't have played around the world and things that you would like to dish or add wouldn't be the one others would because the way of thinking the game is different.

    Five, yes, a bit of refreshment on the old looking profiles would be good for everyone and rethink the fireteam options in the process for the sectorial.
     
  16. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead
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    Let us keep in mind that balance-wise PanO is great, and to get some more interesting stuff we'd have to see some of our advantages go, or to use the moment when other factions get a lot of attention, so our upgrades won't make us suddenly OP. Personally I think we should have less BS 15 units. It's a great stat and all, but we have confirmation that PanO's high BS was a crucial factor in shaping CB's opinion about the faction, so it can really go. I'd say the TAGs should lose it (maybe save Squalo, to make it more attractive). And we should accept the limitations when it comes to specialist, and not asking for adding specialist options to elite combat units, like KotHS or GdA (again, with some exceptions. An Engineer option for Santiagos would make them more viable choice when comparing with Hospitallers).
     
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  17. Wombat85

    Wombat85 Well-Known Member

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    I want to elaborate that the business model is to bring in as many new people as it alienates each update. I really want to emphasis that they have no interest in holding onto players with each addition, only new growth (This is coming from Rick Prestly interviews on GW design philosophy). The logevity they have is through new blood, not retained players, the day that CB goes down that route I will be out of hear without a second thought.
     
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  18. Death

    Death Well-Known Member

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    I think the biggest issue with Pano is that all we do is shoot. Nothing else. That means our selection of units is very limited since it only makes sense to take the best shooters.

    Everything else that can make units interesting is denied to Pano. We don't get interesting toolbox units, we don't have warbands, we don't have efficient melee, etc. The faction is pretty 1 dimensional with a lot of units that are suboptimal outside their sectoral.
     
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  19. Titus

    Titus Varuna Beach Commando

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    Drop Santiago Knights??

    I don't know if you have seen them on the board... But they are one of the best things you can play in PanO.

    Sure Hospitaliers have their HMG and multi rifles, and of course the best of all: a medic. But Santiagos bring some awesome tools with 360 visors, E/M grenades and nanopulsers. And in my opinion, the spitfire fits them better than a HMG, since they can use it from the middle of the board.

    The only thing I really miss on them... Is the possibility of making Joanne count as a Santiago Knight and being able to mix her with magister Knights. (Though in that case the "Santiago's fireteam" would have only one Santiago knight XD).
     
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  20. Rey

    Rey Crabbots lead the way

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    Yeah, we have limited options to create opportunities.
    I would gladly pay with someone's BS15 to get more Eclipse smoke, regular camo, forward deployment guys with fast pandas etc.

    And wip, seriously, WIP 12 on TAGs is just ridiculous, even Palbots have WIP 13. "high" BTS on TAGs also does not do what it's meant to do - with EM, EM2, Breaker, Double Trouble... If someone wants to possess or immobilize a TAG, they will do it via DepReps, pandas, pitchers and so on.

    To start fixing PanO:
    - Super Jump for Seraph's auxbot.
    - Eclipse smoke and 6-2 move for Teutons.
    - Bolts!!1
    - MultiMarksman instead of Combi for Holy Sepulchre knights.
    - Remove CoC from Singh (and maybe give it to Rao)
     
    #20 Rey, Jul 22, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2018