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How popular are/how do you run your single-group lists?

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Maksimas, Mar 24, 2019.

  1. Maksimas

    Maksimas Maxi

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    How popular is it to run such small lists, when not forced to do so ( As in not in a Limited Insertion tournament. )? Is it some sort of odd rarity or is it actually kinda sorta commonplace?

    Also, on the same note, if you run such lists, how do you do so? What sort of method do you have for making them or are there any particular things you look for when making them? How frequently do you run them as well and why?

    Also, found this here post that's of relevance on TheDiceAbide, so I'll link it here too:
    https://www.thediceabide.com/blog/2018/10/15/the-art-of-limited-insertion

    I'll just pre-emptively toss in some opinions myself:
    I nearly exclusively go for single group lists myself.
    I just find them a lot more simple to make and balance out, and it does feel like there is a greater variety of approaches you can take when deciding what stuff to take, although I will admit it, ironically enough, does get pretty difficult to try and properly fit in cheap units without ending up having to scour the army builder for stuff I can upscale to not have as many leftover points.
    I also do love the redundancy of them too, if built right. It both simplifies the order expenditure process for me ( Both because, outside of certain builds, you generally never exceed an effective order count of 11 ( But it is possible to drag out to effectively 13-15 orders in some faction, I hear. ), which helps me not have to think several combat groups separate order expenditures several activations ahead and leads you generally to have to think less about ''How am I going to bring my tool to where I need it to be?'' and more so ''Which tool should I use for this job?''
    Then there's the safety in knowing that if I lose one tool, there's generally one or two more that are comparably capable as well ( This is, at least IMO, a flaw I keep seeing pretty often in the multi-group lists locally. Yes, you have 14-18 orders, but at the same time, it becomes blatantly obvious that if I kill 2-3 units of theirs, their entire capacity for reliably causing harm goes poof. Though it is always amusing to see them try to tackle a suppressive fire Crane with a lowly camo infiltrator who is probably shooting his gun for the first time... especially if they are checking his weapons loadout for the first time as well. ). Lost one of your attacking HMGs? There's probably a Spitfire and a not far off BSG still skulking about you can use, at least that's how this redundancy boon tends to feel.

    Those are my two orders on this, at least. I'm curious to hear your takes.
     
  2. csjarrat

    csjarrat Well-Known Member
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    I tend to like single group lists with my more elite factions for much the same reasons as yourself. I find them quicker and simpler to play and less bookkeeping of who's in which group and what orders do I need to switch around each turn.
    There are some factions that don't build well to it though so my ariadnan stuff and to a lesser extent my nomad stuff tends to drift into 12-14 orders most of the time
     
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  3. Maksimas

    Maksimas Maxi

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    Yeah, I have found whenever I pop into the army builder to kill some time that some factions just feel odd to build single groups around.
    Ariadna, as you mentioned, being one of them, but I do get this effect whenever I open up JSA as well.
    That being said, some of the Ariadnan sectorials feel easier to build like this than the vanilla faction, I must note.
     
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  4. Civilized Barbarian

    Civilized Barbarian Praxis' Lead R&D Janitor

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    [Nomads]

    I used to never run single combat group lists unless forced to, but HI paintrains have become a minor addiction for combat focused missions.

    Jurisdictional Command of Corregidor
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]8 [​IMG]1 [​IMG]1
    MOBILE BRIGADA HMG / Pistol, Knife. (2 | 42)
    MOBILE BRIGADA MULTI Rifle + Light Flamethrower / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 39)
    MOBILE BRIGADA Missile Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (2 | 40)
    MOBILE BRIGADA Lieutenant Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 33)
    MOBILE BRIGADA Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 43)
    SEÑOR MASSACRE (Fireteam: Haris) Breaker Combi Rifle, E/M Grenades, Eclipse Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW, E/M CCW. (0.5 | 30)
    JAGUAR Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 10)
    JAGUAR Adhesive Launcher, Panzerfaust / Pistol, DA CCW. (0.5 | 13)
    McMURROUGH 2 Chain Rifles, Grenades, Smoke Grenades / Templar CCW (AP + DA). (0 | 31)

    5.5 SWC | 281 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    By Tweaking MB and Massacre link costs this gives me major offence and the option to add a Hellcat/Moran/Bandit/Reaktion zond. Great for firefight or decapitation, less so for objective missions like supplies.

    Jurisdictional Command of Tunguska
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]10
    HOLLOW MEN Spitfire, Chain-colt / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (2 | 36)
    HOLLOW MEN (Specialist Operative) Boarding Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0 | 30)
    HOLLOW MEN Combi Rifle, Chain-colt / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0 | 30)
    HOLLOW MEN Missile Launcher, Chain-colt / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (2 | 35)
    HOLLOW MEN Combi Rifle, Chain-colt / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0 | 30)
    STEMPLER ZOND FTO (Super-Jump) Combi Rifle, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 18)
    INTERVENTOR Hacker (Hacking Device Plus) Combi Rifle, 1 FastPanda / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 27)
    KRIZA BORAC Lieutenant MULTI Rifle / Heavy Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 50)
    REAKTION ZOND HMG / Electric Pulse. (1 | 26)
    CLOCKMAKER Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 18)

    5.5 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    Again, murder focused with almost no objective capabilities. The HM missile launcher in a full link feels like a dirty trick on par with smoke+MSV2, I try not to use it too much for fear it'll become a crutch. In this game the HM Missile launcher superjumped to engage a TAG in FtF and ate a panzerfaust, failing all three ARM saves. Because it's remote presence, it fell back behind cover in the unconscious 2 state, falling right at the feet of my Clockmaker. My opponent [Ariadna] couldn't believe it was still alive and has come to hate my Hollowmen. I can't really blame him either, they're too good for their cost.

    I started the game in vanilla Nomads, leaning heavily on Line troop/warband spam and cheap infiltrators, my natural play style being to allow the enemy to overextend and then punish their Rambos while I focused objectives. While the cheap troops drop like flies, they buy the time needed to get the job done and offer the ability to have someone in the right place at the right time.

    In an attempt to better understand my opponents I eventually moved to sectorials for cheap defensive links, and now heavy paintrain links. By learning the strengths and weaknesses of link teams I had hoped to make my flex and surround strategy stronger, but instead I've become hooked on link teams. Going back to Vanilla from here will be brutal, but I think it's time to apply what I've learned.

    In my limited experience single combat group lists are great for killing missions. Tougher troops and fewer options make focusing on positioning and fighting easier. The pain of losing order from such a limited pool is brutal though, I find that if both players have 10 orders, the player that kills first will usually win due to order economy.

    More than once I've seen a specialist have a clear path to the objective on turn 3, but not have the orders to get the job done. That's just a brutal way to lose while having 14-16 orders allows you to still make those hail mary runs at the end of the game.
     
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  5. Maksimas

    Maksimas Maxi

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    That is one way of going about that, yes. Though I have found this enhanced firefighting capability can translate into objective missions in a way as well: after all, how can the enemy complete their objective if none of their units qualify for it anymore?

    Something I've found that makes that pain sting a bit less is making that order loss cost as many orders as I can force from the enemy. It's one thing to lose your 360 Visor Kriza Borac, it's another to have forced your opponent to bend over diagonally on a tight rope to do so. I mean, it's still a lost Kriza, but also potentially a lost turn for your opponent too, in effect.

    Also, both of those are some interesting lists, I must admit.
     
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  6. chaos11

    chaos11 Well-Known Member

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    I always tend to build 10 order lists. I think it’s just because the stuff that interests me more tends to be more expensive (heavy infantry, camo infiltrators etc). I haven’t played a lot yet, so it might be something that would change as I played.
     
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  7. Ben Kenobi

    Ben Kenobi Well-Known Member

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    @Maksimas I don't know how you can say you have redundancy in your lists.
    Do you really can fulfill every classified with redundant troops? Do you have in general enough orders to fulfill your objectives?
    If you only go for kill missions, you are totally right. Otherwise I think it is hard to fit all of that in one list.
    Are you good enough (I'm not) to get the second turn and succeed in avoiding to be ramboed?
    Every (order-) loss in your list must hurt or am I wrong?
    And how do you play Highly Classified with a single order list?
     
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  8. Civilized Barbarian

    Civilized Barbarian Praxis' Lead R&D Janitor

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    Valid point, but I think that mostly comes down to your opponent's army and style of play. Nomads have so many infiltrating specialists and smoke throwers that I tend to dive bomb the objective turn one, then spend the rest of the game trying to deny my opponent the chance to match my score. Sometimes I need to sweep the rooftops of MSV2 ARO pieces before my infiltrators can score, but with mid to high order lists I can do that and still get to the objectives turn one.
     
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  9. Maksimas

    Maksimas Maxi

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    @Ben Kenobi

    I'll go from easiest to answer to hardest:

    Excluding some very button pushing intensive missions like Tic Tac Toe, I generally manage to scrape by. And even in that mission, it has yet to feel outright impossible.

    It largely depends on how and what was lost: yes, randomly losing one of your units to a random schmuck rolling some crits do suck... but on the other hand, I'd feel good about losing anything upwards of a Hac Tao if said Hac Tao forced the enemy to spend the better half of his order pool doing so. The pain of the loss depends on how much had to spent to achieve it, I suppose.
    ...that, or I'm just good at remaining unstressed about seeing my units die. Which is probably a bad thing.

    Generally speaking, if I have to make a list specifically for this mission ( Or it has enough overlap with some other missions at a tournament. ), I try to grab units that can perform as wide a variety of those objectives as possible. Now I do know it's very much so unreasonable to try getting EVERY possible objective within a list that at most has 10 orders ( Before Lieutenants and other nonsense. ), but I tend to compensate that by the logic of ,,I can only do maybe most of these beyond one or two... so I think I should perhaps focus on making sure my opponent has a hard time doing anything either.''
    It's a risk, I know, but that's sort of my playstyle/thing, I suppose? Go big, strike fast, and either metaphorically rip your opponents kneecaps out or fail in a blaze of glory.

    I should have been more specific by what I meant as ''redundancy.'' I was trying to more so imply redundancy as in ''redundancy of a specific role'' over ''redundancy of a specific unit'' but either way, I generally don't try to cover EVERY possible classified when I make a list. That sounds a bit unreasonable to me, since, after all you still get to have some choice over what classifieds you opt to keep, so I generally speaking prefer to take the risk. So I generally tend to lean towards more toolbox/versatile units when I can. HI Hackers are something I tend to like for these purposes: there are already a few Classifieds exclusive to HI, so adding some form of Hacking Device unlocks other Classifieds for them to attempt, and as for the vulnerability to KHDs... my reasoning here is that they were already going to be vulnerable to all the other HDs, so the extra threat of KHDs is a trade I'm willing to take, plus the ability to at the very least disable their hacking devices helps in my defense.

    My general anti-rambo strategy is to hide and make them waste as much time getting to me so I can still have some stuff left-over for a counter attack. Now, this is probably a very meta dependant thing, but at least in my local meta, when someone throws a rambo at you, it tends to be one of two or their only actually menacing attack piece, so if you eliminate it, it tends to neuter the list pretty heavily. Kinda why I'm not a fan of rambo-ing myself... too much risk to overextend, too much flimsy short term investment for my tastes.
    Ofcourse, this might just be me being very lucky that I'm in a meta where people tend to go for the exact opposite of 10 order lists, which are ''Spam as many fucking orders as possible'' lists to fuel being able to use four-six primary units with a fat stack of orders. At which point... it tends to be easy to tell what those units are, and I'd imagine it hurts a lot more to use the unit you were going to sink all those orders into over losing one of the orders you were going to sink into it.

    Again, I personally tend to prefer prevention over accomplishment first, when the mission tends to ask me to perform a high amount of button pushing ( Though I do prefer to grab a button pushing killer whenever possible, to help with doing both activities. ). After all... your opponent can't out-button push you if you don't let them push any buttons either ( Which is achievable in one of two ways: metaphorically break their fingers so they can't push those buttons OR threaten to break their fingers if they try to push a button. ).
    Beat and bludgeon them first... mop up later is my approach.
     
  10. Maksimas

    Maksimas Maxi

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    Yeah, it does ultimately boil down to what's in your local meta I suppose.
    My general approach tends to be to prevent the opponent from racking up too high a score first, either by moving up and asserting dominance over the most tactically important chunks of the table and make them waste as much time not doing what they need to do, or by pro-actively eliminating the stuff that would enable them to do so, whenever possible.
    it's been working well enough in my meta for me, at least.
     
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  11. csjarrat

    csjarrat Well-Known Member
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    I think it's a ringing endorsement of the game system as a whole that quality and quantity are both valid options, having strengths and weaknesses dependent on mission, even after all the years and additions since launch
     
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  12. Maksimas

    Maksimas Maxi

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    Granted, some of those additions were made specifically to allow for that to be facilitated:
    The immunity LI lists have to that -2 Orders Comamnd Token ( Still vulnerable to that ''Only one Command Token use for your first turn'' though. That's always a pain to deal with.
    The way how the newest batch of classifieds involves a lot more non-specialist troops needed as well.
     
  13. csjarrat

    csjarrat Well-Known Member
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    Oh yeah def, that's part of the natural evolution of the game. Slight tweak here and there to keep it ticking over nicely
     
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  14. krossaks

    krossaks Well-Known Member

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    Fir me the only way to succes with one group list out of LI is to make them very very resillient in reactive. Usually it works via camo spam and hidding.

    Although, with Yu Jing vanilla now you can do some strong one group 12-13 orders list.

    With this in fact i'm not having problems in the push buttons missions. With a good camo infiltrator isn't hard to push one or two before going in overkill mode. Just kill missions are more problematic

    Finally another example of really good one group list is the post-human+Achilles+one Netrod + camo spam. This one even being a 10 order one is very hard to decimate, with the opponent usually wasting between the first and second round only to manage post humans.
     
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  15. Maksimas

    Maksimas Maxi

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    That does make sense.
    Every loss can hurt, so you have to make the cost of attaining those losses hurt even more.

    Any way to break the 10 order barrier is a good idea, I'd say, even if it's a mere impetous order or some risky Lieutenant order plays. It helps alleviate one of your weaknesses whilst not forgoing your strengths.

    Yeah, Post-Humans do bring the very strong trait of being acceptable losses for a LI list. Yes, you did kill several models. No, you did not successfully remove the unit itself.
    Pretty darn convenient.
    Coupled with some generally useful ALEPH stuff... it's good. Though the SSS(S?) seems more fun than vanilla to me.
     
  16. Solodice

    Solodice Freshly Squeezed Troll

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    Since N2 I've been pretty much been using 10 order lists with maybe the occasional 13 order list but never more. Started the game with Aleph so 10 orders was kind of the norm when running such an expensive/elite army. I've done fine in kill and objective centric missions with a single combat group. Even when facing off against higher order count lists I don't feel like I'm at a disadvantage.

    For me I don't prefer an order spam play style and tend to stick to more elite armies or builds. When I switched over to YJ I still rocked out with single combat groups. Even though I can very much build out a 16 order list in vanilla YJ I'm usually looking at 10 to 14 orders with my usual builds.
     
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  17. Maksimas

    Maksimas Maxi

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    Mind if I inquire what the usual build would be?
     
  18. krossaks

    krossaks Well-Known Member

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    @Maksimas i'm not the requested one but i can share you my lists xD. I used noth in one tournement this last december with some succes (2 win from 3)

    This worked pretty well. (even if now i swaped the Yan Huo for a Su Jian)

    [​IMG] Yan Huo solo──────────────────────────────────────────────────[​IMG]9 [​IMG]1 [​IMG] YĀN HUǑ Hyper-Rapid Magnetic Cannon / Pistol, Knife. (2 | 54)[​IMG] HAC TAO Missile Launcher, Nanopulser / Pistol, DA CCW. (2 | 65)[​IMG] KǍNRÈN Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Chain-colt / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon, Knife. (0 | 29)[​IMG] GŬILÁNG (Forward Observer, Deployable Repeater) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 27)[​IMG] GŬILÁNG Hacker (Assault Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 31)[​IMG] LIBERTO (Minelayer) Light Shotgun, Chain-colt, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 10)[​IMG] DĀOYĪNG Lieutenant L2 Hacker (Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 29)[​IMG] Zhanshi YĪSHĒNG Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15)[​IMG] YÁOZĂO Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)[​IMG] LÙ DUĀN Mk12, Heavy Flamethrower / Electric Pulse. (0 | 21)[​IMG] WÈIBĪNG Yaókòng Combi Rifle, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 16) 6 SWC | 300 PointsOpen in Infinity Army

    The second one:

    [​IMG] Camo comando──────────────────────────────────────────────────[​IMG]10 [​IMG] DÀOFĚI Spitfire / Pistol, Shock CCW. (2 | 55)[​IMG] ZHĒNCHÁ (Forward Observer) Submachine Gun, D.E.P., Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 34)[​IMG] GŬILÁNG (Minelayer) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 26)[​IMG] GŬILÁNG Hacker (Assault Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 31)[​IMG] NINJA Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Tactical Bow / Pistol, DA CCW, Knife. (0 | 29)[​IMG] DĀOYĪNG Lieutenant L2 Hacker (Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 29)[​IMG] MAJOR LUNAH Viral Sniper / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 29)[​IMG] Zhanshi YĪSHĒNG Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15)[​IMG] YÁOZĂO Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)[​IMG] HÙSÒNG Yaókòng HMG / Electric Pulse. (1 | 25)[​IMG] LÙ DUĀN Mk12, Heavy Flamethrower / Electric Pulse. (0 | 21) 6 SWC | 297 PointsOpen in Infinity Army
     
  19. Maksimas

    Maksimas Maxi

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    Always nice to see some thick Yan Hous take to the field. Always a pleasant sight.
     
  20. leigen_zero

    leigen_zero Morat Pacifist

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    I haven't played in over a year now, but whenever I set about noodling on army I try to go for 1 group lists for morats, since the update we've got some crazy order efficiency so those 10 orders are always going to be well spent.
    Here's one I wouldn't mind testing out if I ever get a game in the next decade:

    Morat Aggression Force
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]10
    SOGARAT (Full Auto L2) Feuerbach / Assault Pistol, AP CCW. (1.5 | 67)
    RAKTORAK (NCO) Vulkan Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 24)
    SURYAT (Tactical Awareness) HMG + TinBot A (Deflector L1) / Pistol, CCW. (2 | 48)
    MORAT Hacker (EI Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 22)
    MORAT (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15)
    MORAT (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15)
    RODOK (Fireteam: Haris) Combi Rifle, 2 Light Shotguns / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 27)
    RODOK Missile Launcher, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 28)
    RODOK Hacker (EI Killer Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 22)
    MED-TECH OBSIDON MEDCHANOID Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 23)
    SLAVE DRONE Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
    SLAVE DRONE Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)

    6 SWC | 297 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    10 models, 3 links, the core link is always running at +1 order and the NCO raktorak can make good use of that Lt order every turn for getting Soggy Moggy into position and pushing buttons. I only didn't go with a 5 man core so I could shoehorn the obligatory dr worm in to cover all specialist options.

    It could probably be better, it's just a quick thing I threw together during a lunchbreak.