I disagree she is the best strong offensive Hacker. She's okayish. Maestro is nice, but Asura can be protected by Fairy Dust at which point she can blow minds of anyone via Redrum. But, lets keep that for a different discussion. Deva would still be boring, I agree, but at least you'd find it easier to include them in the list. Devabot, Sensor (when not Lting), MSV+Spitfire. Absolutely not. I play exactly the opposite; Atalantas high BS is nice, but NWI and the AP+DA that Teucer brings to the table is really, really nice. But he is vastly overcosted. I use Dasyu a lot too, FO in my opinion is much better due to Mines. And Nagas are superuseful. Completely disagree from several points. Please don't insult me by referencing the Thorakitai Engineer, we're not playing PanO here, this is Aleph, we have serious engineering to do. Sophotect has defensive tech, it's called NWI and it's overcosted. I play Sophotect occasionally, when I want different configuration of Posthumans or when I just feel like it. Sophotect is decent, but the vulnerability to Shock is what makes it such a questionable choice. You are looking too small. None of these units will be impacted much by reducing the points cost down by a point or two. But it will make listbuilding a bit more free, and thus we will include the in the lists more easily because we won't feel like they are such a big risk.
Guess i don't consider nwi defensive tech. For me mimitism, TO, ODD, or some other modifier to be hit as defensive. I didn't realize dasyu fo had mines, i have been missing out. I prefer atalanta because i am not firing at targets like tags in my meta ever, so the ap is meaningless to me. Best they are is arm 5 and i think the higher bs is better at this point still. When i being atalanta, then a doctor starts to be warranted. And for the thor+mk1 vs soph, my engineers normally don't need to go far, tr bot and dakini hmg are the biggies who need help. So the slow thor can stare at tr butt when mk1 pulls up as a doctor to ensure scylla and atalanta are still ticking. As for asura, fairy dust gives fire wall, a khd ignores it. Cybermask is safer in the hacker fight.
Not all units are available with all profiles to all factions. Varuna Orcs are, theoretically, available only in Varuna... so that Deva could have that H+ profile only in Aleph or even Vedic. That would have meant no new miniature, though, and they wanted to pack the horrible Karkata (as a model, it fits nowhere on the Marut... which leads me to hope for a second Aleph TAG) with something. But the KHD interventor is 20points ZERO SWC. And Interventors have the Pitchers in Moderators or Tsyklons if they so desire. Teucer is ARO sniper or TAG hunter. Atalanta is Active turn hunter. She can't fail... but the opponent can outroll here. Happened to me, twice in a row for example.
IMO they should gave the Danavas dogged at least to make it feel more Aleph like with a corresponding points increase.
Yes shock is prevalent... and I still love having access to NWI. For me NWI is not as much a defensive tool as it is offensive, shining in the active turn. Having it on your hunter, where you are picking your engagement and ideally only taking one ARO back, is great. NWI mitigates the impact of an individual crit. NWI is great on a fast specialist (like the Sophotecht) for a last turn push to secure an objective. It is also nice to have on your Lt. When paired with a nanopulser you can fend off rampaging 1 wound warbands/fidays/brando etc Limited Insertion is another place where NWI shines, where wounds, not orders, are king. Aleph is easily able to get to 20+ "Wounds" if you leverage NWI. Finally I have come to appreciate NWI on TO snipers, who outrange most weapons that include shock. (obviously multi HMGs and HMGs with marksmanship program are a thing, but even then you can out range them, and TO/cover help.)
So... how much shock I face.... lets see... Haqqslam: Plenty of mines. Fidays have knifes ( so, shokc on something that is *really* easy to get into CC). Viral is not common on the army, but Lasiqs are so good that there is one in virtually every table. Then they have plentyful access to sniper rifles (I do think that normal snipers are better than MULTI ones because of the ridiculous SWC tax on the second, but I digress) And Leyla Shariff - adds a Shock Marksman Rifle to being a Sixth sense KHD on Hassassin. Yeah, things that hurt NWI are omnipresent, to the point I feel like its not a good investment of points when facing Haqq. Onyx: There is *always* a Assisted Fire REM. And its not just shock on that case - you are dealing with Plasma Shock, or K1 shock in a 5 member fireteam. And they are dogged AND REMs, meaning you cannot shock them back or remove them without causing at least 2 wounds on your turn. And they have plenty of repeater coverage, so every REM they have is a potential source of shock - inclusing the best TR bot in the game, the only armed EVO in the game and *gasp* Ikadrons. So not much acces on the tin, but it is virtually anywhere on the table. PanO: They have little of it. It comes mostly on MULTI rifles, and there I find it very fair - they are paying premium for the ammo choice over a Combi. A couple great REMs, but lack of access to great hackers to bring supportware with. NWI is a big advantage here. Tohaa: Sniper access on Clipsos ( TO camo) and Gao-Rael (MSV2). Viral access on a crapload of things. So yeah, not much for shock ( although both shock wielding units are *good*), but you are virtually always facing something that ignores NWI. And to add insult to injury, Symbiont Armor is a second wound ( IE, 3 wounds and you are unconscious when a third wound on NWI puts you on dead), cheaper than NWI even if slightly so and does not have any vulnerability ( Fire vulnerability is gone since 3rd edition - 90% of the Tohaa units care exactly as much if hit by fire as a Orc). USAriadna: Normal Snipers ( linked on grunts and marauders), Camo snipers, mines motorcicle and parachutist SMGs. So, not so much access, but they have them on key units. Not like a SMG on a unit that can't get past midfield, for example. Don't usually feel too bad about paying for NWI, except on Teucer, as it is a advantage against most of what you fight against. Only realy problem is if he goes minespamming midfield, then it becomes a mess. And with 18 pt mining specialists it is *very* possible to do so. As for the things I play with: Nomads: Plenty of mines, plenty of access to good REMs to give assisted fire and great utility hackers to do so. Access to shock on normal weaponry comes into MULTI rifles and - as I said for PanO - those are completely fair as you pay for it. REMs can be present but they are not as prevalent as in Onyx, but it has a much greater shock presence through deployables. ALEPH: Shock is not everywhere, but it is on every list. Mines exist, although the minelayers are relatively expensive so you are paying a premium for them. MULTIs are uncommon and - as mentioned before - pretty fair. Red Fury only exist on Drakios. SMGs however you will see plenty of because of thorakites. There are only very few offensive Shock ammo on ALEPH - Posthumans mk5 with dual SMGs ( and not a care in the world if they get killed), Mk4 but that one you want to keep on HRL range, Drakios with Red Fury and Thrasimedes. HOWEVER, there is a abundance of 360 visors with SMGs. and once those tings are in suppressive fire, you have a virtual field full of shock ammo guarding at least your deployment. TL:DR There is a crapload of Shock / NWI ignoring ammo being thrown around. From 7 armies that usually see the field around my area, only one (PanO) is not expected to bring plenty of it to the table. Also - shock ammo is so prevalent that it is incidental. I do not think I ever though about bringing it to the table, it is simply that a lot of units come with it default. It is not something like EXP weaponry that you actually need to think and plan how you will fit it on your list, Shock is simply going to be there if you think about it or not.
I see no reason for this - except, that it used to be so. The whole point in having ‘discount traits’ like NWI to W is, that they come with counters, and the original rule basically turned W2 HI into W3. ( which is also, why I dislike N3 posthumans, as they no longer have a drawback to make up for their advantages ).
Ok. But let's make shock ammo more expensive then; as it stands now it's too easy to acquire. Also if I could pay however many extra points it is to give my Umbra 2 wounds I would. It's just not an option.
Pricing ‘shock’ might be a little off too, as people mostly seem to reference REM with supportware as the prevalent source of Shock. The next cheap source is SMGs (but honestly, a good range of 8” is hardly overpowering. SMGs most dangerous feature is being cheap Suppressive Fire), and are SMGs not usually reserved for slow MI? The third is mines, that are stationary threats, so again more a question of wasting an order, than being dangerous. Also note, that there are advantages to NWI over being 2W HI, such as not being hackable - why Patroclus often work harder than Achilles in my games. - Although I do agree, that losing a NWI model to Shock is annoying, I usually find, that the choice was mine to begin with. And since both fielding something like a Rui Shi or a Kazak veteran will cost my opponent a quarter of his SWC, I find the advantage justified. Whereas I should have ample opportunity to blow the head off of any SMG advancing towards my line.
@regelridderen Firefighting vs. models with shock ammo and ODD in the midfield is what I'm talking about. Mines are another issue; doubly hurt if you take the interpretation that you can't use Sat-Lock on mines to clear them in an order-efficient manner.
Actually, nowadays we have a lot of ways to deliver SMGs to the other half of the table and do it fast. Both Haqq and Ariadna have AD troops with SMGs, and anyone can get a krakot SMG for 17 points. So no, they are not only on slow moving MI or HI models. The big deal with smgs is that they're basically chaper MULTI-rifles. Sure, the active turn range bands are worse, but on supressive fire the two weapons are basically the same, but SMGs cost much less than a MULTI to put out the same ammount of hurt. I know a multi-rifle has it's advantages, like a DA ARO if you're not in supressive or linked, but the fact SMGs can be found in multiple profiles and have a similar functionality can be a little jarring.
Be blind then. The major reason is because it creates a weird and unnatural exception to the rules. "Oh, yeah, 2W models are kinda immune to shock in that they don't die but they do not use this one skill except if they have STR instead of W, and then you can ignore it." For one, you are the one thinking NWI is somehow a discount trait to W. There is no implication anywhere that it is. In fact, all the text and implementation points that it is precisely that - skill created for fluff reasons and not to create a Wound. Furthermore, nothing says those skills MUST come with counters. In fact, often they do not - consider AD: Inferior Combat Jump. It is a clearly inferior version of Combat Jump, yet it does not come with any extra counters. It carries its own penalties and thats it. NWI is not an extra Wound; it carries a whole host of its own limitations - for example, it replaces unconscious state which means once you've taken your 2 wounds (or 3 for HIs) you are off the table. ...
Please no. I like having a cheap HD+ on a model that isn't supposed to be tanking anyway. If you want a durable specialist that can hack aggressively then take an asura. It never did, we all played that wrong. We have access to plenty of remotes so we're good against shock too. Also, having a counter to anything in your list does not mean it'll be in the right place all the time. Seeing shock on the table every game does not equate to NWI never working. I've had far more NWI troopers keep going than go down to shock.
No, it was playtested as if they did. The Iberian playerbase misread it and it was ensconced in the rules in an FAQ. The red box at the bottom of Shock is meant to read the same as the red box at the bottom of Viral.
Its more about fitting with ALEPH's theme more than anything why i think that should've been the case.
I don’t get you. You’re refusing my description of NWI as a ‘discount W’, and then you continue describing how it acts like a wound, but isn’t as good - which in my book is the definition of discount? I’m also quite aware, how the mechanic works, and actually pointed out, that NWI has redeeming and overlooked qualities compared to W inflecting a little nuance to the debate. - On games design: you do not inject rules for ‘fluff’, you design rules to reflect the fluff/stories, that you want a game to tell ie. NWI tells us, that androids are more powerful, than humans, but not as tough as HI. In a game balanced by points costs, you then price these accordingly to make up for the comparative power levels. Counters in games design, do not need to be an ‘active’ thing, triggered by an opponent, but can be in the nature of the rules. Like how infiltration beyond the middle line usually comes with a die roll, how the utility of NWI comes at the price of losing UNC. etc.. How that affects points cost in the end is then a subjective evaluation based on the effect in the context of games.
That would make them as expensive as Deva Functionaries, and more than Nagas. So surprise, the new unit sees little table time because the Naga KHD qualifies for Dakini alignment (and Aleph tend to be tight on orders, thus not buffing remotes is not a rare sight). Or Qapu, she can link there with Ghulams too (and turn the Defensive cheap link into a one-woman marker objective grabbing once the link has suffered 2-3 casualties). I think Varuna will gift them with shock, at least with Kamau and Varuna Orcs. Yes and no. Shock prevents them from activating NWI, but won't kill them (so they go to Unconscious instead if they got a Shock wound in that order). I disagree. Reaching up to half a table's length (60cm / 24'') with a -3 is quite the reach anyway, simply because it means you can cove the whole side from AD troops enter from a side of the table... Make sure they can't be fired upon "diagonally", and hey! 13 points later your FO Thorakitai ( will kill almost any Tomcat/Bashi Bazouk/etc... entering by that side side. Double that for the other side too. And they have a chain rifle, 360º visor and beefy ARM5+ in cover... for a static role, with good ARO reach (thanks to the flash pulse)... they are even better than Dakinis as cheerleaders, and you can throw them with the coordinated order you will do to place 2 Dakinis at midfield in Suppresive Fire (so they impose a -9 to incoming fire!). Sure, good range of 8'' doesn't sound very impressive. However, remember that SMG has been issued as "extra weapon" to a lot of models (Fasid, Mk4...) aside from cheap, BS11-12 ones. Heck, gimme a Myrmidon profile for 16-17pts with SMG instead of chain rifle and I will pick it all the time!
