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How many side games can Infinity N4 survive?

Discussion in 'News' started by zapp, Sep 2, 2021.

  1. csjarrat

    csjarrat Well-Known Member

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    At some point CB will have to face the monster pile of bloat in Infinity. There's only so many editions they can Bury their head in the sand and get away with it.
    The extra stuff stuck in consistently doesn't help tbh. It needs a good cull but nothing pisses people off like finding out their toys aren't valid any more.
    It's a delicate balance that they'll need to find with it but infinity has been a huge and ponderous beast for years and it's getting bigger and bigger, the transition to n4 has left lots of sectoral factions either in the dust or in a half baked state. It ain't slick and and it needs sorting. Kicking the can for another edition only makes it worse
     
  2. Lucian

    Lucian Well-Known Member

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    Imagine some years in the future stuff like Infinity: Classic with digitally modelled old school chunky sculpts... in plastic
     
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  3. CAnon

    CAnon Well-Known Member

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    Great post. Thought i'd just cut in though, that -V- has repeatedly said on various social media that Aristeia is in a good state for now. They're consolidating at 32 Aristos, and putting most new releases on hiatus whilst they take time to see what works and what needs tweaks (and also, I suppose, churn out Defiance and TAGRAID:sob:), but he's always been at pains to stress that he and many others in the CB team love Aristeia. I think it's pretty premature to say it's finished, particularly with AGL5 out tomorrow showing their commitment to further refine and develop their product (via the aristo balance patch in Last Dance, and the fan-made Aristos in Rookies).

    Oh god, people paying top dollarydoos for "Guijia™ Classic (now with Lime!)" :joy:
     
  4. csjarrat

    csjarrat Well-Known Member

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    @Pierzasty GB died primarily because it became hyper focussed into competitive play. It was a game of gotchas, millimetre-accurate positional play and denial play that amounted to NPE in a lot of cases. It had a very high skill floor so was very unwelcoming to new players which is a damn shame because outside of chess clocks and all-day events, it was a great, fun game. They never quite got the balance right either. Fighting teams tended to have the upper hand throughout the editions and the scoring teams never quite got in the right place to compete at top levels regularly (aside from the usual one or two wonder kids that bucked the trend here and there). But yeah, it either needed a re launch and a re brand for a new audience or to be put out to pasture. It was easier to ditch it and move on to new projects so that's why it died. Lack of new players and a small hyper competitive hard-core that wasn't business viable killed it off. Just easier to move on to new projects at that point.
     
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  5. micropoint

    micropoint Member

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    Personally I can't help but feel like the appropriate place for these multitudes of kickstarter spin-off profiles would be as an ITS extra. Playable but not by default.
     
  6. atomicfryingpan

    atomicfryingpan Well-Known Member

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    Why? What's so hard to manage about the current amount of profiles right now?
     
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  7. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    You just start getting too many optimised profiles represented by characters or unique things. People don't like playing against carbon copy armies, so more proxying occurs and visual acuity of the game gets worse than it currently is.
     
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  8. csjarrat

    csjarrat Well-Known Member

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    The fact that they can't keep all their factions balanced externally against each other and many factions struggle with bad internal balance. There are many factions that have profiles that are very difficult to justify because there are other profiles in the same faction that are just flat out better.
     
  9. Dragonstriker

    Dragonstriker That wizard came from the moon.

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    Additionally, new profiles are created to provide new models in a factional release, but then neither the new nor old profiles are sculpted and released for extended periods, or ever. For example, Liu Xing replaced Tiger Soldiers in IA but only one model has been released, in the starter. Since then 5? factions, 2 operations boxes, code 1 and N4 have been released with no sign of another Liu Xing. This is a problem of cb’s own making - they could have left tigers in IA, made an additional profile and released that one in the starter, since Liu Xing are generally considered worse than tigers.
     
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  10. zapp

    zapp Well-Known Member

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    In recent days, I though about why I felt the need to post the initial thread and what motivated me to do so.

    First of all, I'm very glad the CB decided to only introduce one profile per different type of troops in TAG Raid! This is imho a good compromise.

    I started playing Infinity in the early days of N3 with the first 2 players box and many things that brought me into the game still apply.
    - the fantastic models,
    - the rules
    - the people that play this game.

    But the last point is the main reason to post this thread. The people I play the game with, and also me, have the feeling that CB "did not put enough care into Infinity". These people are slowly turning their backs from the game. I can only speak for myself on why this feeling might be there, but I'll write my thoughts down here.

    When I started the game, new sectorials only came out once a year, and it was an event when that happened. It felt like a "new Kickstarter". People where debating about future sectorials, what units could be in there and what lore would be attached to them.
    Then, some years before N4, CB changed their release plans and felt the need to push out everything they had prepared from a lore standpoint in a very short timeframe. Next to that, more and more profiles popped up from Aristeia and the first Comic, while before that, it only was the ITS winner pack miniature that was added once a year.
    This, and keep in mind, that is my point of view, culminated in the N3 releases of White Banner and Svalarheima, which felt totally soulless, only released to support the new CodeOne line of rules and miniatures.

    With Defiance, the attention was completely drawn away from Infinity. For a long time, news where dominated by the first CB Kickstarter and people who did not want to back that game, because they did not want to play it, felt left behind.

    N4 was the new hope, but was, and still is, dominated by the pandemic. But not only that. There was nearly no lore or story that accompanied the new set of excellent rules. Cosmoflot was introduced as a new Ariadna sectorial instead of refreshing the Scots. It is the best example of the current "lore free" era we are currently in. It feels like an old rockband decided to make some more money by releasing a Best-Of album instead of remastering an old and loved album from 10 years ago.

    I welcomed the release of the MO box in spring this year, because it showed that CB is willing to put some care into N4 core Infinity again instead of Defiance or CodeOne.

    With the release of TAG Raid, there was the fear that Infinity core is again are overwhelmed with models and profiles from a side game. As I said in my initiial statement, they did not go full in and I'm very glad for that.

    Nonetheless, I feel like the soul of Infinity, like I used to know it, is fading out slowly. Where will be left a game with one of the best rulesets in the industry. This works totally fine from a technical point of view, I fear that thats not enough for more and more people to continue (or start) playing Infinity.
     
  11. Abrilete

    Abrilete Well-Known Member

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    Reading the Infinity Reddit, I've come to realize that there are indeed a lot of new players coming into the game and one of their first questions is... what about the lore?
    It's fine to release a Kickstarter from time to time to expand the franchise and not put all the eggs into the main Infinity (N3, N4...) basket, but I wish we had more books/comics that expanded the lore.
     
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  12. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    I don't like the side games either, but I'm pretty skeptical of some of these claims.

    In my meta, most players did zero wargaming during the pandemic. Only a few of us were interested in playing online (and we've been having a blast throughout N4). So there was very little talk of Infinity, but I don't think it can be blamed on players "turning their backs from the game." Last weekend we had our first in-person tournament since March 2020, and there was a great deal of excitement and excellent turnout from the players who haven't touched the game since N3. My experience doesn't support the notion that people are losing interest in Infinity - they were just on hold during the pandemic.

    People still are. Mostly Haqqislam players since the next sectorial will probably be either QK or Khanate. But I haven't seen any lack of interest in new sectorials.

    That said, don't those of us who dislike all the side games also dislike the proliferation of new sectorials? Surely the solution would be to stop releasing new sectorials and focus on the existing ones, rather than increasing player interest in more new ones.

    Really? I had no interest in Defiance, and thought it was pretty dumb, but I didn't feel "left behind" by it. It seems weird to complain that other people got a game they enjoyed, just because we don't enjoy it.

    Infinity's lore has always been terrible, though. Does anyone really play it for the lore? I agree with you that the big pluses of the game are the models, the rules, and the players - the lore has always been a minus. I've never seen it stop anyone from enjoying the game.
     
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  13. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    I don't think Defiance or TAG Raid impacted Infinity locally at all. A few people bought Defiance and split it to get into new factions / get new models, but I haven't seen anyone play it yet. As for TAG Raid there doesn't seem to be much interest locally, because it's not as good as a Infinity product as Defiance was.

    I'm pretty happy with the powerlevel of the TAG Raid stuff. It seems reasonable, but far from auto-includes. The fact that it also doesn't have a single model begs for then to be converted / proxied and really doesn't feel like the spin off product is a necessary purchase.

    That being said, we just started in-shop games again and are having our second tournament since the beginning if the pandemic and we're already at 14 registered. We have a ton of new players, so the interest for the game seems to just be growing. (We managed to keep a lot of people interestes by playing on TTS during the lockdown)
     
  14. Urist

    Urist Well-Known Member

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    Lore and aesthetic gets a lot of people invested in their little soldiers. I like painting and I like fluff text more than actually playing wargames. It's what draws people in. None of my armies in other games are based on unit profiles, I pick on fluff. Even if it's a mediocre story, it's better than nothing and I don't think it should be ignored.

    The other newbies at the store aren't interested in unit profiles, we are coming from other systems with established lore like 40k, Battletech, or Warmahordes. If a new person goes "Hey this model looks cool, what's his deal," they rather get the fluff than an answer like "well he has a +1 burst HRL with shock mines and sixth sense which means you can use him to... yada yada yada.." They just want to know who is in the cool power armor. Like if they released the Shujae or Nadhir it would probably be a cool model with their profile, but literally who are they.
     
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  15. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    Without quoting the unit profile, you can explain what it does / play like. "This is my best shooting, it's unrivalized and is buffed by their teammates, dealing with him face-on is very hard and the opponent will likely needs to deal with the supporting pieces first" and "this is a sneaky trooper that is very strong in close combat, it serves as an assassination piece and trades up with their most valuable target" will get people as interested as explaining what the Kamau or Fidays are in the lore in my experience. (I know nothing about the lore of either)

    The gameplay dynamic, the terrain and the models have drawn way more people (mysef included) than the lore in my experience.
     
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  16. zapp

    zapp Well-Known Member

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    btw, can anyone here remember the online campaigns that came our regularly and that actually wrote tiny bits of the story? Even with the rather sad to use interface and the problems of fake games, these were fun to play in.
     
  17. Urist

    Urist Well-Known Member

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    But the Kamau and Fiday are old models with big lore blurbs, before they stopped caring. You can go to the store or Human Sphere and get a paragraph or two of fluff that gives you a basic idea of what they are (background, training, why they're used). Then you check newer units like the Namurr whose text is basically, "They first appeared in the Apothecary War. The Apothecary War is where they were first sighted." You can make assumptions based on their stats and model, like they are probably an evolution on the Runihara or Nahab super soldier programs, but it doesn't say that anywhere and that's super boring.
     
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  18. Muad'dib

    Muad'dib Well-Known Member

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    To me, the creation of sectorials enhances the game because they are cohesive and themed. This expands the lore universe and gives people new ways to play models that they already have. I remember the excitement in the community when Human Sphere first released and I feel we've largely lost that with the current release schedule.

    I am less concerned with the creation of new side games than I am about how CB implements their profiles within Infinity. If newly developed profiles (particularly generic mercs) were limited to expanding the roster of NA2 armies, I dont think it would be a big issue - many NA2 factions are fairly sparse already and the introduction of new units could allow them to phase out some of the "main faction" troops that are used as filler today.

    Rather than do that, CB instead introduces these new profiles across a huge swath of factions. CB clearly has limited resources and rather than revisit and refresh older factions and profiles, they choose to give everyone a shiny new unit to play with, regardless of whether it really fits with the style and balance of the faction. I introduced a new player to Infinity earlier this year and while he still loves the game, he is already becoming disillusioned by all the mercs and how they make his faction's flavorful profiles obsolete.

    Having been out of the game for sometime, I recently bought the Third Wave and Daedalus's Fall books. Compared to Campaign Paradiso and Human Sphere, the lore profiles for new sectorials and units are short, unspecific, or even nonexistent. I don't know if Gutier has become tired of writing unit/sectorial descriptions for the books or what, but it feels like much of the excitement and engagement that made the early books good is gone.
     
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  19. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    I don't mind the side games in and of themselves. I just don't like them taking attention away from Infinity. Which I feel has. I feel like they have not play tested their own stuff seriously.

    I do think there's getting to be bloat. A list like below should not be possible. The Lt. is even in camo so you would almost not know what you were playing against. Yet it is and really not bad. Now there's a TAG, HI, and a fantastic Skirmisher to add to it.


    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────
    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]7 [​IMG]3 [​IMG]1
    AÏDA SWANSON Submachine Gun(+1B), Viral Mines / Viral Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (0 | 23)
    BOUNTY HUNTER Submachine Gun, Akrylat-Kanone / Breaker Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-6). (0 | 12)
    BOUNTY HUNTER Submachine Gun, Akrylat-Kanone / Breaker Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-6). (0 | 12)
    LIBERTO (Minelayer) Light Shotgun, Shock Mines / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1 | 8)
    KNAUF MULTI Sniper Rifle / AP Heavy Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 32)
    LIANG KAI Chain Rifle, Light Shotgun, Flash Pulse / Pistol, EXP CC Weapon. (0 | 21)
    CUBE JÄGER (Paramedic) Submachine Gun, E/Mitter / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon. (0.5 | 19)
    REM RACER (Hacker, RemDriver [+1 BS], Hacking Device) Submachine Gun ( ) / Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0.5 | 21)
    MONSTRUCKER Submachine Gun, Chain Rifle, Drop Bears / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 12)
    HAWKWOOD (Chain of Command) Red Fury, Nanopulser(+1B) / MULTI Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon. (1 | 45)
    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]3 [​IMG]3 [​IMG]2
    DĀOYĪNG (Lieutenant [+1 Order], Hacker, Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun ( ) / Breaker Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 30)
    TÁOWÙ (Counterintelligence) Nanopulser(+2B), Flash Pulse(+1B) / Viral Pistol(+1B), Monofilament CC Weapon. (0 | 25)
    MAJOR LUNAH VIRAL Sniper Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 29)
    WARCOR (360º Visor) Flash Pulse ( ) / Stun Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 3)
    BOUNTY HUNTER Submachine Gun, Chain-colt(+1B) / Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-6). (0 | 8)
    BOUNTY HUNTER Submachine Gun, Chain-colt(+1B) / Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-6). (0 | 8)
    6 SWC | 300 Points
    Open in Infinity Army

    I too would rather they make other games that have nothing to do with Infinity and would love a fantasy skirmish game from them as well. Preferably something different from the usual elves, dwarves, type of fantasy. Maybe something akin to Wild West Exodus or Malifaux in being fantasy but not medieval (Final Fantasy?). They could come up with a completely different set of rules or something "like" Infinity. Use of d20s, ARO, and Face to face rolls being the core things but all else could be different.
     
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  20. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

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    Why improve underpowered sectorials or fix things that people dislike in the game when you could be busy adding new libertos profiles to the game?

    Its sad because the ridiculously in-depth fluff on random units was one of the huge draw points of the game. Hinted at some huge background that I was just scratching the surface of.

    As thrilling as this piece of fluff here is, it doesn't quite have that same impact. Maybe if they included "these troopers were quite important in the Apothecary War" at the end it would have more of an effect.
     
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