CB playing with an ever-evolving ruleset and an ongoing storyline is probably a better tactic than trying to release a "finished" ruleset and tying off the storyline. We live in an age of hybrid revenue models, subscription fan support, and endless franchise for rock-em-sock-em superhero series. It's a good time to mess around with your concepts/stories, product offerings, and sales methods to see what fits. Imitating what has come before, semi-cloning the biggest companies on the market, or being static in your offerings has -not- worked out for the companies who have tried it recently, at least in the miniatures field. CB have chosen to try a bunch of interesting experiments, some in the name of profit, some in the name of quality product for consumers, and some mainly for fun. That's the great thing about being a small business: you're not beholden to shareholders or mass-market customers, just investors or stakeholders who probably share your values. As interesting as I find Infinity's storyline (and I've really loved watching it unfold over the last decade), I'm just as happy to watch their business and artistic moves remaining slightly unpredictable and always full of character.
Really nice takes on a need to polish instead of power-creep releases. Totally agree on that front. Personally a wake-up call came for me when Bakunin got new Riotgrrls, Morlocks, Moderators, Taskmaster, starter set... then just stumbled and died. At that point in time I really considered CB to go NCA and ISS route - practically completing and balancing-up a sectorial before moving on. Both NCA and ISS felt well rounded up-to-date and complete. They felt right. Sadly, from then on I felt like Infinity releases just rushed new sectorials. Being unable to build old sectorial with up-to date sculpts (and fill all the AVA for particularly good profiles), whilst waiting years for newly released sectorials to get all necessary miniatures - a total hype killer. Not to mention old sectorials getting power-level obsolete pretty fast. As for edition change - I don't mind it. Still I would love for CB to just complete the ruleset before moving on with adding new rules & stuff to the game. Build it from ground up, so that everything new is tested and balanced based on final ruleset. Right now it feels like a patchwork instead of a solid rework. Like Fireteam rules. There's a mess of OP crazy mixed fireteams and we're still waiting for Fireteam rules patchwork to drop and save us. Ehh... I won't lie - right now I'm in a love/hate relationship with this game.
I completely agree, a total rework of already existing stuff would be much more favorable than plopping out half baked sectorials and books. How come it is still okay to have a few years of outdated fireteam rules waiting for an update? It was just like that back in N2 -> N3 transition. For me a wake up call was all these *new* sectorials (somewhere after tunguska) with *new*, but similar to already existing units (with no models or concepts). Like all these Ariadnas generic troops - Volunteers-Metro-Rokot-Grunt-Kazak. Do they really need that many? Just multiplying entities will never solve problems with balance, and by adding new and new units to the builder they'll never produce already existing troops. After they embraced "you can proxy everything, duh" approach I just don't care about conversions or even buying new stuff.
Yeah. In one hand I can totally agree that the proxy rule is not doing well for generic releases. There's really no need to get a full core of yet another generic HI, when you already have three fully painted fireteams of HIs in your army. The only thing CB can hook me up with now is beautiful miniatures that I like more than what I already have. In the other hand flexibility provided with proxy rules is the only thing that kept me collecting. When I started my second army I decided to use only the very best looking miniatures. Proxy rule allows me to play with this peculiar collection and add some miniatures from outside the faction as well. I do think the rule is what keeps a lot of veteran players in the game. Say hello to my Shaolin Monks...
Proxy rules are in general a boon, everybody has a model they do not like and would rather use another model, or a model they really like but it is not from their force, or in other cases we have creative players who craft their own stories in the game and their forces are all converted models.
Proxy rules + small troop count on the field lets you try different armies. After that, you cannot help but to buy models for that new army...
Also add in my need to possess all the minis available (sort of like collecting Pokémon) and it’s a recipe for an empty wallet…
Sorry for being a bit off-topic but this blatantly false. Necromunda is shockingly cheap to get into and it sounds like what you meant to say was 'to have a decent 40k army then you’ll have an infinity army' (in fact, it's so shockingly cheap I was starting to question if it even was GW that made the product). If you go to CB's store and buy the models needed for an average ITS competitive list, filled with REM's and all sorts of troops spread across 4-6 different boxes, you could literally buy 3 entire gangs of Necromunda for less than that. in Necromunda, you actually only need one box (or one primary + expansion) and you have a gang that can last you for an entire campaign with plenty of sprues and weapons left over, unlike the infamous lie perpetuated with Infinity of "yOu OnLy NeEd 10 MoDeLs!". This is solely due to the fact that once you buy your two gang boxes, there's literally nothing else to buy, unlike 40k where there're 11 different boxes of Space Marines (literally) and you need to buy at least 5-6 of those boxes to field half an army of 40k. This is not me saying Necromunda = good and Infinity = bad, they just scratch two entirely different itches for me and Necromunda is laughable ruleset for an actual competitive game when compared to Infinity. In fact, you start to appreciate that the only issues you have with the rule set of Infinity is vague Spanglish versus Necromunda having around 1/4 of their ruleset completely unplayable RAW.
Yes and no. What you’ve said here is essentially what I meant. My point was that Infinity is inherently cheaper to break into and play than necromunda or any other game. To play necromunda you need at least a box of miniatures (more if you’re not playing orlocks), the rule book and the codex for your gang. To get most of the weapons you need to field a decent gang you’ll have to buy another box and possibly the plastic weapons upgrade. Which is going to cost more than getting started in Infinity. Edit: Just to clarify, regardless of the cost I will still pay out if I want the minis. Which in the case of necromunda (and Age of Sigmar, 40K and doing the battle of gaugamela in 28mm…) I will happily pay the costs. I’ll just grumble about it later. They’re beautiful minis. There’s not an orlock, Escher or necromunda mini from forge world I don’t have. (Other gangs excepted, there are three of us in our gaming group and we each picked a main gang and rolled for a side gang so I don’t have the forge world stuff for gangs not my own).
Sorry but you do not appear to play Necromunda then. There are actual special/heavy weapons in the normal boxes and on repeat sprues (which is why another box is not really needed in many gangs). Orlocks and Cawdor are the "spam armies" of the game (which still has a hardcap of 10 models on missions), which is why I suspect you don't play the game since you appear to claim Orlocks is the gang that requires the fewest boxes. The rulebook is on a compendium online to download (not the codices though) but even IF I told a new player that they needed the physical rulebook, a codex and a gang box would net you a total of 89£ or 54£ if you don't buy the physical rulebook. You could also go full ham and buy two orlock boxes, plastic weapon sprues AND the codex, which would net you 95£ and you're practically set for life. How much is an Infinity army? You can buy the CodeOne: YJ collection pack for around 240£... Oh, but that's just a bundle so it's it's not representative of anything! So let's take an Aleph Action Pack, which is around 76£. Do you have anything even remotely close to an army? The answer is no, and you have already exceeded the costs of starting a gang in Necromunda by a large margin and you're not even close to be able to play the game in any way that represents the real game experience, unlike Necromunda which does not require any extra sprues or rulebook you claim it does, in order to get started. I'm sorry but there's literally no two ways to cut this, Infinity is MUCH more expensive than Necromunda. Sure, ANY other GW product and we wouldn't even be having this talk. Anyways, if you're interested in talking more about Necromunda you are certainly welcome to PM me, so we wont continue the derailing of this thread (of which I'm entirely to blame, I know).
I actually do play the game. Quite frequently and it was expensive. The special and heavy weapons in the normal boxes do not allow you to kit out your gang across a campaign or even at the start. Orlocks do require the fewest boxes to get most of the profiles as they have most of the weapons you’ll want to start with on their sprues. If I want to start playing infinity just to see what it’s like I can pick up a starter box and begin with smaller games. You can’t do that with necromunda so the buy in is more. You’ve focused on the larger sets as a getting started for infinity. When I began I had bought a handful of minis and that was fine for learning the rules. If you want to go price for price then the getting started set for necromunda is around £90 from GW without the faction books (the main rule book is in the box). The crimson stone box is roughly the same price but the book is free. Getting started in a GW game costs more than getting started in Infinity. Let’s go for picking up boxes of minis we think look cool just to try the games too. For necromunda it’s £26 per gang box, £28 per gang book and the rule book which is £35. So £115 for two random gangs and the books. Infinity could be played for £60-70. Two starter boxes and free rules. Ergo, necromunda costs more. You clearly love both games, which is great but our experiences on purchases for those games differs greatly. I’ll say nothing more on the matter and agree to disagree.
Back on topic, The number of games infinity can survive seems to be as many as Corvus Belli wishes. I base this solely on what’s coming in 2022: Fireteam updates for N4 New ITS and AGL New N4 action pack New infinity story New code one battle pack I’d say that CB will be continuing to support their core game for as long as they wish to. I honestly don’t think any of the side games will harm Infinity.
And here lies the difference. You refer to Crimson Stone box as "getting started" but the fact of the matter is, you're not even close to being "started". Why is it necessary for Necromunda to buy an entire gang, expansion, codex and sprue + book in order to meet the criteria of "getting started" (when in reality, that purchase is the game equivalent of buying an entire Infinity army) when your definition of "getting started" with Infinity actaully leaves you much worse off than buying a simple box of Necromunda and you're not even 1/3 of the way of meeting the same standard for "getting started" with Necromunda? I'm sorry, I don't mean to go on but is just weird.
Editing this post as I feel I didn’t accurately answer the questions posed to me. There will be a wall of text to follow. Please note that none of my statements are meant to cause offence, neither are they meant to belittle. They are simply factually based comments or my own opinion. Since I cannot add quotes for some reason I will append the questions posed to me in parentheses. “Sorry but you do not appear to play Necromunda then. There are actual special/heavy weapons in the normal boxes and on repeat sprues (which is why another box is not really needed in many gangs). Orlocks and Cawdor are the "spam armies" of the game (which still has a hardcap of 10 models on missions), which is why I suspect you don't play the game since you appear to claim Orlocks is the gang that requires the fewest boxes.” 1: If you intend to play the game at anything more than a single game/match level per time you WILL need more than one box per gang. The sprues do not contain enough weapons, heavy/special or otherwise to outfit your gang for a campaign as you cannot proxy miniatures. They must be wysiwyg so you’ll need extra miniatures with the correct weapons outloads. Not only that but depending on how you choose to start your games then you may also require juves (I refuse to call them anything else) and also other things such as ambots and animals for your gang. This is in much the same vein as the argument you propose to start infinity however so it is best to look at it at the base level. For which you may require more weapons than exist in any one box. “The rulebook is on a compendium online to download (not the codices though) but even IF I told a new player that they needed the physical rulebook, a codex and a gang box would net you a total of 89£ or 54£ if you don't buy the physical rulebook. You could also go full ham and buy two orlock boxes, plastic weapon sprues AND the codex, which would net you 95£ and you're practically set for life.” 2: A compendium online to download. So theft then. You’re illegally downloading someone’s intellectual properties without permission. I will never support actions like this regardless of costs. It’s wrong. In a similar vein you don't need to buy any rules, movies, or music as they are all available for free online. Unless you’re talking about the file available on Yaktribe but even then it’s not exactly supported by GW. On your other point; Two orlock boxes do not have any juves so you will still need the support box. And for the price you’ve quoted here you can have an infinity army too. It may not be a good one but then neither is the necromunda force you’ve bought. The point is that for what you’ve spent you will have an army which was what I stated. “How much is an Infinity army? You can buy the CodeOne: YJ collection pack for around 240£... Oh, but that's just a bundle so it's it's not representative of anything! So let's take an Aleph Action Pack, which is around 76£. Do you have anything even remotely close to an army? The answer is no, and you have already exceeded the costs of starting a gang in Necromunda by a large margin and you're not even close to be able to play the game in any way that represents the real game experience, unlike Necromunda which does not require any extra sprues or rulebook you claim it does, in order to get started.” 3: What you consider an army and what actually CAN be an army in Infinity are two different things. You seem to focus solely on the vast number of profiles available (which can be proxied by any miniature of equivalent size). You are adamant that an infinity army must be tournament ready and so will cost the earth. If we’re talking about real game experience here then for both games you’re spending a large amount of money. For which see my previous statement of what you spend on necromunda WILL get you an Infinity army as at this point you’re playing the games at their highest levels. “I'm sorry but there's literally no two ways to cut this, Infinity is MUCH more expensive than Necromunda. Sure, ANY other GW product and we wouldn't even be having this talk.” 4: No. No it’s not to which I’ve demonstrated the costs of simply picking up a few boxes for each game. One is more expensive than the other with the books or it’s relatively even if you leave out the books and assume play at higher levels. At which point my original statement stands again. What you’ve spent on necromunda will get you an infinity army. I never said it would be any good. “Anyways, if you're interested in talking more about Necromunda you are certainly welcome to PM me, so we wont continue the derailing of this thread (of which I'm entirely to blame, I know).” 5: You seem really keen to talk about a game that has no connection to these forums. Which is fine, I just don’t think it’s the place for it. Other sites like yak tribe are devoted to this. I have no problem if you wish to PM me about it, I do enjoy talking about any wargame, especially one I was so invested with in my youth and to which has had a very interesting resurgence with some stunning miniatures. “You refer to Crimson Stone box as "getting started" but the fact of the matter is, you're not even close to being "started".” 6: Crimson stone is a getting started box. It lets you play the game. Same for the necromunda getting started box. You are actually “started”. “Why is it necessary for Necromunda to buy an entire gang, expansion, codex and sprue + book in order to meet the criteria of "getting started" (when in reality, that purchase is the game equivalent of buying an entire Infinity army) when your definition of "getting started" with Infinity actaully leaves you much worse off than buying a simple box of Necromunda and you're not even 1/3 of the way of meeting the same standard for "getting started" with Necromunda?” 7: the criteria for getting started in a game is as follows: do you have enough miniatures required to play the game? Do you have the rules available? Do you have a board set up to at least a rudimentary standard? For infinity you can learn the basics of the game and even quite a few advanced tactics with a 150 point game and you don’t need to buy the rules. For necromunda you do. You also need the books with your gang in to optimise. The cost of getting started in Infinity is less than in necromunda if you are buying gangs that are not in the getting started box. If we take the getting started boxes into consideration then the price is relatively even. To which again my statement of what you spend on necromunda will get you an infinity army holds true. This is the last I will say on the matter. I am abhorred by your potential statement of theft of intellectual property. I am going to agree to disagree here but would strongly dissuade you and anyone else from actions that violate the IP of any company in any manner. “I'm sorry, I don't mean to go on but is just weird.” 8: Could have PM’d me. Now can we all please get back on topic?
If you really want to test the system and play a game or two before commiting you can always use someone else's models. I don't know how it is with Necromunda but Infinity has Warcor system that does exactly that. Heck, if you already play another scifi miniature game then you could try proxying for few games with friends or other people willing to play against that for sake of getting new player into the game.
We did just this for our first Infinity game. Used some ww2 minis I believe. Our shock at the damage a hmg does in active turn to someone not in cover was likely felt worldwide… think that was at the start of N2.
Well, as long as you're at home with friends, you can do that with pretty much any game. It only ever makes a difference once you go to an LGS or a tournament.
Yes, but at the point of tournament play you are no longer starting up and you should have enough guys to make few lists for different missions. And for random casual play at LGS most people should be okay with heavy proxying if you have at least some proper minis. Either way it's very easy to check out Infinity for free or virtually no cost, and for first dozen games you could do with very small investment to check out what is worth buying after testing. But to play any ITS event without relying on proxying too much you need to spend few hundred $/€.
@Gwynbleidd First of all, you could literally just @ me, even when you claim you are unable to quote people, rather than quitely editing a post and hoping no one will challenge your claims. Second of all, you are blatantly shifting the goal post. My objection to your claim is the following: This is mathematically impossible. An Infinity army will cost you around 140£ - 300£, depending on how badly your army is hit by different boxes and price increases and whether or not you define an 'army' as a 300 point list or a sizeable collection of nearly everything in the faction. As by the factually provided numbers, a full gang that last you an entire campaing + sprues + codex is nowhere near this and I'm unsure why you want to dispute this matter of fact. a) False, most starting gangs are between 6-8 models and the sprues are repeat sprues, meaning special weapons are actually more available than other GW products (that often have 1 SW per box). You are also making contradictional claims because if you use several heavy weapons (to the point that you are using more than the 2/4 provided in the box), then you are blowing credits like there's no tommorow and there's no snowman's chance in hell that you are having 10+ models and 3+ heavy weapons + suspensors in early game. b) What boxes are you in possesion of? Because Van Saar, Cawdor, Escher, Enforcers, Genestealers AND Corpse Grinder Cults have literally several special and heavy weapons in their sprues.. Will they last you and entire campaign? Unlikely. Will they last you more than 1 game? Yes... In fact they will literally last you several games. (Also, Orlocks is literally the worst box in the game as they do not have any basic weapons other than Autoguns and shotguns and meme-harpoon launcher. Orlocks is arguably the box that requires the most assistance in the form of an extra sprue, so it's bizzare that you would claim that Orlocks box have plenty of weapons...) a) Let me stop your moral grandstanding and virtue signaling right there. GW and the team responsible for Necromunda are well aware of the compendium and even admitted so on twitter. They tolerate it because they know that game is literally absurd for new players to actually get a grasp of when it comes to learning the rules, due to the bizarrely fragmented ruleset and printed FAQ's implemented into the physical books. The unofficial stance on this, that the document is fine as long as the codices are not being released in this manner, which they aren't. b) So you don't know what a Juve is then..? The expansion box contains Prospects and even though they share some special rules with Juves, they are entirely different than actual Juves. Any Necromunda box will instruct you on how you build Juves from the totally standard boxes. Also, no you can not buy an Infinity army for that price point and you can make obscenely broken armies by using barely half of one box + expansion + sprue with Goliaths, Delaque, Van Saar and even more so with Corpse Grinders, as you can build them the cheapest and strongest in the game, whereas rest of the gangs can do very well with the provided contents. No, that's dishonest. If you're attempting to claim that Operation:X with 6-7 minis constitutes "an army", while being unwilling to accept a box of similary priced (by your own admission) starter sets of Necromunda is totally not, then that's either dishonesty or bad faith. Furthermore, why make the statement 'if you spend on infinity what you need to spend on necromunda to have a decent gang then you’ll have an infinity army', if you're refering to small starter sets? That sentence implies that in order to make a decent (implying semi-competive but not "highest levels" as you claim), you will spend the same amount of money on buying an entire Infinity army. Why would that statement have any impact or meaning if you are just referring to small 150 points bundles that actually doesn't represent actual games nor army lists in even normal non-tournament games? You haven't demonstrated anything. I've given you actual numbers and you've just basically said "no, Necromunda is more expensive". Except the Necromunda box literally, factually, lets you start a gang ready for a campaing while the Crimson Stone does not provide you an army ready for 300 or even 200 points. Your pearl clutching means little as that has been debunked as per above. Rather, I think you should reflect on why you engage in several intellectual sleight of hand, like shifting goal posts and being intentially vague about statements, so you can refute anyone trying to pin you on anything or make quiet edits. Also, I refuse to believe you can speak matter of factly on Necromunda due to the following: You do not know what a Juve is and claim that one generates Prospects and not Juves during the campaing, which by your standard would have made the game unplayable since 2017 and only playable late 2018. You are unaware of the fact that ALL GANGS are in the main rule book AND YOU DO NOT THE CODEX to play the book with a gang, as you choose to create a gang either as a Classic Gang or House of X - gang, meaning that you, quite literally, do not need a codex for your new gang, unless you want to play a House of X gang. You claim the Orlock box is the box you could get away with buying one of because it has the most weapons "you need", despite the fact that it literally doesn't contain any special weapons or even a basic Boltgun and only comes with two of the worst heavy weapons in the game Stating that you cannot make a "good" gang out of standard box + expansion + sprue, when the fact of the matter is not only can most gangs do just that, half of the gangs in the game can do so to such an extent, that they usually require house ruling or "gentlemen's agreements" because they can wipe the floor with you. Why didn't you literally do just that instead of making a wall of text? The former text could've been left as it was and was disengaged just fine but you chose not to let it be, along with accusing me of engaging in "abhorrent" behaviour.
While this is very interesting and has re-ignited my interest in finding a Necromunda faction I like and start a gang, could we get back to Infinity? (Oh, and theft requires unlawful change of ownership - not something that's possible to do to intellectual property without a crack team of really expensive lawyers and a huge war chest to pay them from. Have this free Segway to Tunguska :p )
