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How many side games can Infinity N4 survive?

Discussion in 'News' started by zapp, Sep 2, 2021.

  1. zapp

    zapp Well-Known Member

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    With the recent news that TAG Raid profiles will be available in N4, we now have three side games with Aristea, Defiance and TAG Raid that kind of bloat up the armies of the core game. (The only one I care about)

    I can understand why CB is doing this from a selling standpoint for their games. Being able to use the Defiance Miniatures in Infinity was one of the reasons for me personally to back Defiance. But I don't know if it was necessary to add the extra profiles.

    Balancing the different armies is a challenging task even without having to fit in "sales pitch miniatures" for the side games.

    So whats your oppinion about this? I think I made mine quite clear.

    Edit: 13.11.2021, added my latest post here:
    ---
    In recent days, I though about why I felt the need to post the initial thread and what motivated me to do so.

    First of all, I'm very glad the CB decided to only introduce one profile per different type of troops in TAG Raid! This is imho a good compromise.

    I started playing Infinity in the early days of N3 with the first 2 players box and many things that brought me into the game still apply.
    - the fantastic models,
    - the rules
    - the people that play this game.

    But the last point is the main reason to post this thread. The people I play the game with, and also me, have the feeling that CB "did not put enough care into Infinity". These people are slowly turning their backs from the game. I can only speak for myself on why this feeling might be there, but I'll write my thoughts down here.

    When I started the game, new sectorials only came out once a year, and it was an event when that happened. It felt like a "new Kickstarter". People where debating about future sectorials, what units could be in there and what lore would be attached to them.
    Then, some years before N4, CB changed their release plans and felt the need to push out everything they had prepared from a lore standpoint in a very short timeframe. Next to that, more and more profiles popped up from Aristeia and the first Comic, while before that, it only was the ITS winner pack miniature that was added once a year.
    This, and keep in mind, that is my point of view, culminated in the N3 releases of White Banner and Svalarheima, which felt totally soulless, only released to support the new CodeOne line of rules and miniatures.

    With Defiance, the attention was completely drawn away from Infinity. For a long time, news where dominated by the first CB Kickstarter and people who did not want to back that game, because they did not want to play it, felt left behind.

    N4 was the new hope, but was, and still is, dominated by the pandemic. But not only that. There was nearly no lore or story that accompanied the new set of excellent rules. Cosmoflot was introduced as a new Ariadna sectorial instead of refreshing the Scots. It is the best example of the current "lore free" era we are currently in. It feels like an old rockband decided to make some more money by releasing a Best-Of album instead of remastering an old and loved album from 10 years ago.

    I welcomed the release of the MO box in spring this year, because it showed that CB is willing to put some care into N4 core Infinity again instead of Defiance or CodeOne.

    With the release of TAG Raid, there was the fear that Infinity core is again are overwhelmed with models and profiles from a side game. As I said in my initiial statement, they did not go full in and I'm very glad for that.

    Nonetheless, I feel like the soul of Infinity, like I used to know it, is fading out slowly. Where will be left a game with one of the best rulesets in the industry. This works totally fine from a technical point of view, I fear that thats not enough for more and more people to continue (or start) playing Infinity.
     
    #1 zapp, Sep 2, 2021
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2021
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  2. HarlequinOfDeath

    HarlequinOfDeath Tha Taskmastaaa
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    I am ok with this and I support this approach. Why not more new and fancy stuff? However, I don't like mining TAGs in a SpecOps game. So I will wait what this Kickstarter will bring alongside these four TAGs.

    About bloated armies: At tournaments I just ask for the special equipment a unit has (ODD, TO, heavy weapons etc.) and don't bother about details of a profile.

    And I think the overall balance of the game is still exceptional.

    The only product I didn't like so far at all were the paint packs that enforced my to buy colors I don't need.

    That being said, I want to see:
    - a Defiance expansion
    - rules for regular TAGs in TAG Raid
    - more Aristeia! stuff
    - a REM racing game
    - campaign books!!!
     
    #2 HarlequinOfDeath, Sep 2, 2021
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2021
  3. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    I've come hate them over time.

    And at this point, I think you should introduce a special extra for ITS that cannot include any pre-order-unique/aristeia/ITS-winner/defiance character or unit in your army lists.

    The problem is, that they are all designed individually and not from a holostical perspective, meaning their power levels are wildly inconsistent.
    So either they are useless profiles or pure power creep are an overall detriment.
     
  4. tox

    tox SorriBarai
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    Do you remember that you can use whatever model you want as a proxy?
    And ITS models have a standard release?
    And Aristeia models usable in N4 have standard release?
     
  5. Lucian

    Lucian Well-Known Member

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    I don't see why everyone so crazy about this. CB have no problem bloating armies even without new games. Look at Ariadna - with Kosmoflot they have 5 somewhat similar line troops! And a bunch of other troops that already have similar existing units.
     
  6. Spellbreaker90

    Spellbreaker90 Well-Known Member

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    Armies are already bloated. Sectorials play a huge part in this. You need to have 3+ model that do the same thing, in a slighlty different way, cause every Sectorial need it's flavor. Even considering Aristeia!/Tag Raid/Defiance the amount of model that comes with totaly new profile in a year is really low, if you confront them with other Skirmish/Wargame.
     
  7. Pierzasty

    Pierzasty Null-Space Entity

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    I give Aristeia a pass, since it proved itself to be excellent on its own merits. That said, I'm still against rampant throwing of Aristeia Characters into Infinity profiles without rhyme or reason.

    Defiance, being a Kickstarter-only release, can go jump on a cactus, even if it were great as a game. Which I cannot check.

    TagRaid merges the worst of Aristeia with Defiance - a KS release that doesn't seem to have anything interesting or good. I mentally filed it in the garbage bin until decisively and actively proven otherwise.

    In conclusion: either shit or get off the pot, CB. Either make a game that can stand on its own without connection to Infinity (where's my fantasy skirmish game, BTW?), or don't make it at all. Because it seems more and more like some soulless marketer's scheme that just sells the brand piecemeal for short-term gains and then drops the company to move on to the next "client".
     
  8. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    You couldn't miss the point more if you tried.

    Fuck the physical models.
    The mentioned models were released with a profile along with the model.
    THOSE PROFILES have just been pumped out without much thought of external/internal balance.

    Rouhani, Billie&Jazz, Parvatti & Libertos are just pure unjustified powercreep, while Uma, Oktavia, Kunai Solutions & Trisha are LMAO-tier profiles.
    No thought-process was invovled regarding whether or not individual armies needs those specific profiles or if it messes with external/internal balance.
     
  9. MATRAKA14

    MATRAKA14 Well-Known Member

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    In my opinion, this side games are a necessary evil. Because the alternative is more direct N4 infinity products, and that means more random mercenary armies even more bloat and more unnecessary flavourless sectorials. Also, those products are probably ineffective during the pandemy.

    Defiance only added some profiles. At least they had the decency of removing Cadin from TAK. I hate when they add characters to their intended sectorials and then they add them to a bunch of random armies and to the newest sectorial to scratch extra purchases even if it makes 0 sense in theme or lore.

    I hope the defiance mercenary sectorial and the kosmoflot+nomads sectorial never come to existence.

    Aristeia in the other hand has been a plague for infinity.
    Special honors for Dart, that profile has no place in this game and should have never existed.

    Libertos was a mistake.

    Having said that, we have to be honest. This Kickstarter products are infinity products with a free game attached to them. And the same type of games without infinity profiles would probably not sell at all unless it had a very different approach.

    The good side of this projects is when they use them to update old products like shasvastii or old tags.

    One thing I know for sure, infinity requires a deep simultaneous army rebalance and redesign, if we get soft rebalance changes one by one and only with products attached to those changes the game will fall in to the Games Workshop loop. If things keep going like they are now, people will play N4 with N3 armies with a collection of random band-aids on top for years to come.
     
    #9 MATRAKA14, Sep 2, 2021
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2021
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  10. tox

    tox SorriBarai
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    Don't forget ABHs.
    And Joan, Ko Dali, Nurkias...
    Oh. and Musashi!

    Man, I hate all those promo models! Better keep them out of the table!

    Seriously, apart from Parvatii, no model is ever an autoinclude. And Parvatii is just a very good Dr. Worm in armies witouth proper support (O12)
     
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  11. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    OT: This part made me chuckle, not because I disagree (although I think she was much more terrifying in N3 compared to N4) but because Dart will always be the profile I remember as the profile I was most wrong about.
    Jesus Christ, it's embarrasing how poorly I rated her on release! :joy:
     
  12. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    The lies we tell ourselves in this community (for some reason).
    It doesn't hold up in any competitive setting, what so ever.

    Also, half of those models/profiles you mention are not promo profiles... they had an exclusive minature for an already existing profile, which isn't the same... like... at all..
     
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  13. fatherboxx

    fatherboxx Mission control, I'm coming home.

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    Parvati is pretty expensive for what she does imo, far from autoinclude, especially if you are playing vanilla without valuable STR troops.
    and its not like balance between units doesnt fluctuate like crazy in the game regardless of where they come from - dire foes, side games, army reworks or just new releases

    Characters especially have always been that way. Infinity units are frequently designed top-to-bottom way (i.e. flavor first, mechanics to support it), characters with extremely overly described backstories (a number of them started as RPG characters) turn out to be a mess of gear and skills to reflect that. So, purely by chance (and with almost zero testing it seems) they turn out as superunits or trash.

    I dont consider kickstarter games as games but rather cash raising operations thats probably more effective for mini company than just applying for a loan. Also more miniatures for collectors. Minis sell, profiles dont.
     
    #13 fatherboxx, Sep 2, 2021
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2021
  14. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    Touché
     
  15. MATRAKA14

    MATRAKA14 Well-Known Member

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    Bootleg
    Lux humbra
    Busy mind collectibles
     
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  16. bladerunner_35

    bladerunner_35 Well-Known Member

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    I think it is great!

    I love Infinity and I love Carlos Bostria.

    It’s great that they go all out with different releases, formats and media. Can’t wait for the novel and accompanying limited release model.

    People take this shit way to seriously. Like, “come on CB, please just focus on MY stuff” when it is clear everything, good or bad, is a labour of amor.
     
  17. zapp

    zapp Well-Known Member

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    Maybe my problem with this is that I have the feeling that the actual Infinity is just the selling platform for all these other projects. And I feel this is weakening the core product. If I compare the hype that was made about Defiance with the one of the N4 release you could get these impressions. All that said with the pandemic still in place, but thats my impression from the media received.

    I'd like to see more love for the core product. I have no problem with the proposed addition of a Yujak character to White Banner, because this is most likely (hopefully) done to address some sectorial issues. But i.e. Quing Gao feels wrong in that sectorial (fine in IA on the other hand)
    Also the brilliant initiative with concept arts and even a fan made 3D model to add a TAG to the ISS. A TAG profile would be welcome there. But please no mining TAG to help sell TAG Raid!

    Defiance is a great game on its own right. I love playing that. And I certainly will use some of the models as proxies for YJ, but CB, please consider designing new profiles first with your core game in mind and second with the sales for the latest Kickstarter campaign.
     
  18. LazyBrush

    LazyBrush Well-Known Member

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    for me i see this way:

    Aristeia: good idea poorly executed , ass pvc figures and characters design
    Defiance: a decent dungeon crawler excuse to get minis ,
    Tag raid : more pvc ,unappealing and dissappointing content plus the chinese shipping thing , they need to be cheap or have some hiidden ace.
     
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  19. nazroth

    nazroth 'well known Nomad agitator'

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    For some time now I have a gnawing feeling that CB is looking for a way to milk easy board game money and catapult out of troublesome Infinity the Game, of which most of their staff seem bored to death. It's not like no one did this before (SFG and Guildball for example). The issue is that without Infinity fanbase CB doesn't exist on a wider market, whereas selling random stuff to same customers time and time again is just a glass ceiling for someone who wants to expand.
     
  20. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    I’ve made similar observations about all the ITS prize merc characters; some categories, especially solo snipers, are now completely overloaded in vanilla armies due to the number of models competing for the slot, between each of the native options from the different sectorials and then all the ITS mercs (Knauf, Lunah, etc). At some point, it’s just not possible to meaningfully differentiate characters anymore.

    Defiance added a handful more characters, but most of the models were alternate sculpts. The models that came with the paint sets were also just alt sculpts and did not contribute to army bloat.

    It’s probably not sustainable in the long term, at least as long as they insist on putting them in vanilla factions as new profiles. I think they might need to start considering having characters in their other products (games, comics, …) that map to particular loadouts of existing units, or are limited to a specifically relevant sectorial.
     
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