1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Hemos actualizado nuestra PolĂ­tica de Privacidad acorde con la nueva RGPD. +Info // We've updated our Privacy Policy to comply with the GDPR. +Info
    Dismiss Notice

How I would do O-12

Discussion in 'O-12' started by Ghost_X, Jun 30, 2019.

  1. Cartographer

    Cartographer Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    675
    Likes Received:
    1,113
    ODD is +3 points, WIP 12 -> 14 is +3 points, PH 14 ->13 is -2 points, ergo difference is 4 points.
    That you value ODD so highly kind of indicates you don't play with or against enough DTW (especially these new adhesive variety where PH suddenly looks a whole lot more important).
     
  2. Death

    Death Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2017
    Messages:
    971
    Likes Received:
    1,328
    Thats such an odd comment. With an HMG it should be sticking at long range. For 48 points its a real steal. Great for taking down ARO units.

    Do you really value ODD so little? Now if this was closer to a Swiss Guard's cost but only had ODD then you'd have a point. But for 48 points its a great unit.
     
    #182 Death, Aug 1, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2019
    xagroth, Berjiz, Modock and 3 others like this.
  3. Cartographer

    Cartographer Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    675
    Likes Received:
    1,113
    We've seen ever increasing numbers of MSV equipped ARO units, ODD is worth exactly nothing vs a Kamau, Nisse, Haidao, Djanbazan, Intruder, Agema, Gao-Rael...

    I value ODD significantly less than I value TO.
    In fact, I pretty much value it at about 3 points (which is what most units, including the Omega, pay for it), more than mimetism, less than camo, nowhere near TO.
    A Swiss has higher BS, higher PHY, better ARM, better BTS, better deployment, better defensive measures (and a better CC weapon for the one-in-ten-thousand-year-event when you decide to use surprise attack), it pays for its superiority (even if I think it overpays for TO thanks to the BS double dipping). Even so the Swiss still has to be careful of WB toting DTW; the Omega many times more so since it can't revert to a marker state and as soon as it cops a fire hit it's an overpriced Orc (a unit that saw widespread play only after it was able to join cheaper fireteams).
     
    WarHound likes this.
  4. Death

    Death Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2017
    Messages:
    971
    Likes Received:
    1,328
    lol An overpirced Orc HMG by a mere 4 points. The Omega is what the Orc wishes it was. The Omega is cheap enough that you can easily take other offensive threats. For its price, which is pretty close to basic HI levels, its worth its cost.
     
  5. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    4,559
    Likes Received:
    4,434
    Sure.

    Depends on what it is. 3 points on a BS 14 HMG is a steal. 3 points on a TAG would be criminal. 3 points on a warband is ok.
     
    xagroth likes this.
  6. Cartographer

    Cartographer Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    675
    Likes Received:
    1,113
    Yeah, overprice an already overpriced unit, by 4 points. What exactly is your point? That an un-optimised unit could be made way better, at higher cost? Well duh!

    You asked how the Omega HMG costs 4 points more than the Orc HMG.
    You got an answer.

    Are you just now discovering ODD?
     
    Abrilete likes this.
  7. Death

    Death Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2017
    Messages:
    971
    Likes Received:
    1,328
    I'm sorry, your right. I'm an idiot. I bow before your superior knowledge of this game. The Omega is an overpriced unit that will see little to no use. Got it. Please bestow us with more of your wisdom. Oh great one.
     
  8. WarHound

    WarHound Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2018
    Messages:
    106
    Likes Received:
    125
    Geez man, that's just petty.


    Gimme a sec.

    Looks at various HI across all factions that have Multirifles
    Omega = 45pts

    The average cost of the following works out at 41pts:..
    Hsien = 57pts
    Dao Fei = 53pts
    Crane = 52pts
    Suryat = 41pts
    ORC = 40pts
    Shang Ji = 40pts
    Wu Ming = 39pts
    Mobile Brigada = 39pts
    Hollow Man = 35pts
    Knight Hospitaller = 35pts
    Riot Grrl = 32pts
    Zuyong = 31pts

    Now, i'm sure we'll agree that almost all of these have some extra rules and stat increases above and beyond what an Omega can offer, but the standouts are the ORC (40pts) and the Suryat (41pts) as the most 'no frills' troops on offer with a comparable price point.

    But from other factions and profiles, a 'basic' HI profile can be considered to be the Brigada (39pts), Hospitaller (35pts), Wu Ming (39pts), Riot Grrl (32pts) and Zuyong (31pts).

    I'd say that a 'basic' Heavy Infantry can be more like ten points below an Omega, which is a significant difference, and a lot if the ODD is a moot point (as @Cartographer has mentioned). Throw on the final 'comparisons in a vacuum are moot', and it's easy to see why, in a faction where HI options are so limited, you are of course going to end up with a high-priced priced platform. Compare to other factions with relatively few S2 HI platforms (Nomads, CA) and you can see the price spike for them.

    IMHO Omega is expensive, and brittle.
     
  9. Death

    Death Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2017
    Messages:
    971
    Likes Received:
    1,328
    I suppose saying he started it would be even more childish? Eh, your probably right. *shrug

    Well, we see units very differently then. I don't see arm 4 + 2 wounds as brittle. Its not a tank but its decently tough. Those basic HI are almost never taken by themselves with combi or multi-rifles in generic armies. They are taken with heavy weapons. The ones with spitfires are going to have just as much trouble vs templates but are forced to get closer to the enemy. The ones with HMGs are going to be outperformed by the Omega.

    Am I saying that the Omega is the next Swiss Guard? No. But its designed to win long range FtF rolls with an HMG pretty darn well for an affordable price. You can easily fit an Omega into a 15+ order list. I like to have a unit or two which is dedicated to long range firepower with an HMG and the Omega fits that bill very well.

    Compare the Riot Grrl w/ Spitfire vs the Omega. The Riot Grrl is quite a big cheaper but has a big weakness in frenzy that the Omega does not and has a spitefire forcing it to get closer to those nasty templates, mines, and jammers. I'd say the Riot Grrl is a bit more fragile in this case but you pay for what you get.

    The best case you can make vs the Zuyong HMG which sacrifices PH for cheaper cost. But its an odd ball unit since its surprisingly cheap for a 2 wound HI without frenzy. Do I expect a lone Zuyong HMG to win vs linked missile launchers and snipers or would I rather have the extra protection of ODD for the extra cost? Now yes, MSV 2 snipers will negate that ODD but theres white noise in this same faction.
     
    #189 Death, Aug 2, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2019
    Ghost_from_warp and xagroth like this.
  10. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    6,056
    Likes Received:
    7,595
    If ODD is a moot point, you need to use your Cyberghost better or glue CC monsters harder
     
    Ogid, xagroth and AdmiralJCJF like this.
  11. Death

    Death Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2017
    Messages:
    971
    Likes Received:
    1,328
    What are your thoughts on the 3 HI in O-12 since you've quite experience with the Yu Jing HI.
     
  12. Guiz

    Guiz Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2019
    Messages:
    28
    Likes Received:
    17
    Do we really talk about omega points price whereas there are a lot of more interesting things to share with a new faction? Keep in mind the points cost is depend on the faction also, no access to fire team with as many profiles than a secto is a weakness which is currently balanced by cost points. In every army there are low cost must have miniatures (mutta, proxy, MC murrough, clipsos, sukeul..)
     
  13. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    5,673
    Likes Received:
    4,541
    That's why you bring the Hacker + unit to the party. Repeater and White Noise = no MSV sight...

    Sure, they can use SS2 because a lot of ARO MSV pieces can go inside a 5man Fireteam, but if he's the only thing you see, it's already 4vs2 bullets and little way to go around that... and if you can see more ARO pieces you can pick them one after another, so the MSV has to face the rain alone.

    "Basic HI" models are, usually, Brigadas, Orcs, Janissaries (even considering the lack of Cube, and the Religious Troop), Suryats, Shang Ji (not Wu Ming, since those are heavily discounted with certain profiles because of the weapons), and Ectros. The Military Order HI units are a mixed bag, because of the recent rework and little to no "base" to look at (the hospitalers would be the "basic" so to speak, but they got said discount when the 300pts box went out).
    In that regard, having ODD makes the Omega *not* a "Basic HI".

    To be fair, they can be... the Riot Grrrl with Blitzen and combi which also is an Specialist Operative is a very good bet for about 30pts...
     
  14. Death

    Death Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2017
    Messages:
    971
    Likes Received:
    1,328
    Ah good point. I suppose the Omega really isn't a basic HI so much as a very cheap elite HI.
     
    WarHound likes this.
  15. Cartographer

    Cartographer Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    675
    Likes Received:
    1,113
    Sorry for coming off as overly combative, I'm just a little jaded from the all the hyperbole around the new units.
    I don't think the Omega is a bad unit, it's exactly what I'd want from a no-frills ODD HI gunplatform, but it's not underpriced for what it brings; I've faced PanO, Steel Phalanx and Combined more than enough to expect ODD gunfighters, and their flavours are all better shots, sturdier, faster and/or tougher at close range.
     
  16. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    6,056
    Likes Received:
    7,595
    I'm not charmed by the Gamma, it's trying to be an amalgamation of a Kriza, a Mowang and a Yan Huo and that space is getting crowded. It's not a bad unit, but design-wise they could have skipped it entirely and maintained the narrative of S5 being used to cram lower tech on a single trooper.

    Omega and Beta I'll play the crap out of as both are offering something beyond just a plain simple HI platform. They have the sort of ornamentation that if used properly allows you to seriously shift MODs in your favour, unlike the no-frills HI like Wu Ming or Zuyong who needs to rely on ramming their foreheads on the problem until their foreheads or the problem cracks..
    The Beta is a thin-skinned Su-Jian stuck mid-transformation and while ARM 5 is an important aspect of what makes a Su-Jian good, with a bit more delicate use I'm sure the Beta will be able to punish the backline adequately.
    There's a lot of situations where a Hac Tao can keep dishing out punishment without going back to marker state and the Omega is just that. Slightly lower ARM, but also significantly lower cost. Omega is going to do great, I'm certain of it, and I'm looking forward to stupid lists involving 2-3 Heavy Riotstopper Omegas so I can go all Medusa on my opponent. Particularly since unlike most ODD units, a Hac Tao or an Omega will not be stopped by a lucky crit or a suicidal Chain Rifle.

    In either case, the Cyberghost HD+ is going to work great together with these.
     
    Ogid and xagroth like this.
  17. Death

    Death Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2017
    Messages:
    971
    Likes Received:
    1,328
    I might have snapped at you. I blame being an awkward nerd. :P I suppose I'm shocked by how the Omega is not at least 50 points. ARM and PH and expensive stats. Though its not particularly OP since there are many way to handle the Omega, the cheap cost makes it easy to put into big order lists.

    MultiRifle+ Heavy Riotstopper does seem like a good combo but if your going for short range, I wonder if the Beta trooper would perform better?

    But how good do you think the Gamma is? Does it not compete with the Omega as an all around attacker? Fullauto lv 1 + Heavy pistol is some very decent short range firepower with shock.
     
    #197 Death, Aug 2, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2019
  18. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2018
    Messages:
    914
    Likes Received:
    751
    I think the hyperbole is more about the new trend of trying to get the most out of the point formula than the units per se. O-12 army is cool, but it just seem that every single unit is bit better than it should and that can cause a stink.
    If the army perform at the level of others in a few weeks there should be no more hyperbole... until another O-12 unit get released of course XD
     
  19. NorthernNomad

    NorthernNomad Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2018
    Messages:
    75
    Likes Received:
    86
    I feel like the ORC comparison doesn't work well not because the Omega is OP, but because the ORC is under-powered.

    A better comparison would be to compare the Omega to Kusanagi.

    Kusanagi - 44PTS
    Mov | CC | BS | PH | WIP | ARM | BTS | W | S | Multi-rifle, light flamer, E/M Grenades
    4-2_|_16_|_14 |_13 |_14_ |__3__ |__0__| _1 | 2 | ODD, NWI , Religious, Specialist

    Omega - 45 PTS
    Mov | CC | BS | PH | WIP | ARM | BTS | W | S | Multi-rifle, Heavy riotstoper
    4-4_|_15_|_14 |_13 |_14_ |__4__ |__3__| _2 | 2 | ODD

    Now all considered they have nearly identical Stats and roughly equivalent weapons.

    The Omega has 1 higher armor, better movement, and higher BTS, but actually needs that BTS as it has the downside of being vulnerable to hacking unlike the MI Kusanagi.

    Meanwhile Kusanagi, is slower and only has NWI versus the full 2 wounds. But has the significant advantage of being a specialist, and also has Courage as well as FD1 (in season 10 at least)

    All said they are pretty similar profiles and cost about the same which I would say is balanced.
     
    #199 NorthernNomad, Aug 2, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2019
    Abrilete likes this.
  20. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    6,056
    Likes Received:
    7,595
    Well, Betatrooper have a fairly good loadout in the Killer Hacker Device for short range work, I'd be happy to take one of those in just about any list, but the Omega has better stats and the ODD, extra ARM and larger DTW means you'll be able to gamble more when facing off against a Fireteam. Short range Omega that manages to cross the mid-field is the Dakini Core's nightmare, whereas the Beta is merely going to be dangerous. Unless the Dakini link is in a tower in which case the Beta is.. well you know; it depends. I'll be happy to test both of them.

    Gamma doesn't do much new. It's the closest thing to an Orc or Yan Huo in the army, if we use liberal amounts of reduction. Sure, it'll probably perform adequately and I'm interested in testing the Feuerbach profile in particular, but it doesn't have any MOD stacking, no increased mobility and no indirect firepower. In fact, the latter is almost completely missing for the faction and might be what pushes the Beta into prominence in general as it'll be one of few that can effectively deal with hard-to-get-to Jammers.