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How I envision a redone CC...

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Sabin76, Aug 6, 2019.

  1. Disko King

    Disko King Well-Known Member

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    Thing that bothers me with cc, that if you have those glass canons, some cheap dude with template weapon can just blast you...oh, you just gave me -20 to my roll(can't -20 but just fore the sake of it)...oh well, don't really care because I will just template you, so we can die together....

    It just gets worse if they are in link and have ss l2
     
  2. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    They have the ebolaplaguedeathpox. Don't go near them or you'll catch it. In the stomach. Through the ribs.

    Seriously, I think the problem is more that since they are so excellent in melee, people take extra care to deny melee, which reduces melee interaction since the short range makes it a hard situation to force. A Mobile Brigada (for example) can not compete. Once Domaru is in melee, the Brigada is done for. The Brigada can compete against the game's best shooter through initiative and position, but not against a decent melee monster other than staying the f- away.
     
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  3. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    I don't see a problem with assualting around a corner? Its better for both players than the current change-face method of reaching combat.
     
  4. SpectralOwl

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    Or relying on your faction being one of those with Smoke. Admittedly, my big stumbling block with "Assault as Common Skill" is the Knight of Montessa. 14" range on CC attacks is a nasty balance problem, but also awesome.
     
  5. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    The potential is to limit assualt to certain sllhouettes or unit types? Eg. No REM or Bikes.
     
  6. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Brisk antipodean

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    It's also possible that a 14" assault on a few particular models might not actually be that degenerate. This is one of those things that would be interesting to test before condemning.
     
  7. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    This is also true. A Montessa does seem a bit gross at first glance though. But it might be just the thing that breathes life into the profile. It would depend a lot how it fit into the wider game.
     
  8. DukeofEarl

    DukeofEarl Well-Known Member

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    I'd rather face that Montessa than Yojimbo or Penny though.
     
  9. Leviathan

    Leviathan Hungry Caliban

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    To be honest, reaching CC has never been a problem for me. The problem is getting there and being punked by some pleb with a knife because I rolled under 5 with my single dice.
     
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  10. theradrussian

    theradrussian Well-Known Member

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    This. Everyone is happy to mention the good bits of CC when it works because it's fun and cool, but spending 8 orders to get in position and then to roll a 1 and lose 30-50 points of CC specialist as a resutl stings. Often so much that you'd rather shoot due to the order efficiency and lower reliance on a single die.
     
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  11. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Why aren't you using MA3, so you have at least a +5 to your roll?
     
  12. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    I just wanted to say that it's entire point of deterrent abilities: even if they never trigger, they affect the game. Remove it and the same opponent now gains another option he wouldn't consider most of the time otherwise.
     
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  13. Leviathan

    Leviathan Hungry Caliban

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    Wasn't really being specific, just a random low number.
     
  14. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    For example, the Ninja sniper. Any other BS11 sniper can be CC'd to take them out, but a Ninja cannot safely be CC'd.

    See also the complaints about vanilla YJ losing the Oniwaban in the Uprising, as now opponents didn't have to worry about their main beatstick getting MonoCCW'd.
     
  15. natetehaggresar

    natetehaggresar Backlogged Painter

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    I want to chime in and say, I really don't want there to be an active/reactive turn burst discreprancy with CC.

    One of the many reasons we see order spam now is that burst 3 with a good target number can pretty consistantly beat burst 1 with an excellent target number.

    Changing MA so that its burst 2 on active and burst 1 on reactive suddenly has things like lone Morlocks being significantly more likely to kill the likes of Achillies. I really don't want the game further favoring fielding lots of cheap dudes at the expense of the more elite options.

    Similarly, I rather don't mind CC being niche, and units have only "deterrant" level CC. For the most part if you can shoot someone why would you WANT to run accross a room to CC them? Burst in real life is a thing, and bullets have a lot more stopping power than a knife. I love playing steel, and I melee when appropriate, but I certainly don't feel cheated by wasting points on CC when my myrmidon spitfire or achillies mows people down. Similarly I don't see how people can say the pay off for CC isn't worth it when your speculo cuts my kriza/sally in half etc. Or when you can do things like stack MA and odd mods to degrade a toublesome link. I think its perfectly acceptable for CC to not always be the preferred vector for units, even ones that are good at CC.

    On a related note, I don't consider CC 16-19 and levels 1-2 of MA to be bloat. My kriza hitting back against a CC specalist from behind on a 15 or (surprise attack) 9, certainly beats a chage face on a 8 or 2 (14 - 3 MA - 3 change face, (-6 surprise attack). The CC attack gives you a ~10% chance to kill the myrmidon and ~25% for them to try again, the dodge gives you a ~ 32% chance to try again. I know what I'd prefer, especially since it doesn't really cost that much, we know CC is a cheap stat. I am thankful for the CC and MA on a swat, he's survived the unkown ranger because of it before (and stealth is awesome, though that is also a different issue).
     
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  16. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

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    The main thing I want to see with CC is for its lethal bubble to become more relevant, especially during the reactive turn. Engage needs to become a threatening action. Being able to apply the MA skills to Engage would do a lot to make it potentially worth using. Or turning it into a reactive Assault, coupling the movement and CC attack together for a penalty to the CC roll.
     
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  17. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Deterrent-level CC? so, 18+ with no more than MA2? (Though I consider Ninja Snipers to have deterrent-level CC with CC23 and MA3. Usually you can stick a Morlock or whatever into CC with a TO sniper and win, but not a Ninja.)

    Anything below CC18 is just flat not worth even trying to get into CC.


    :citation needed:


    I like that idea!
     
  18. Spellbreaker90

    Spellbreaker90 Well-Known Member

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    My two main problems with CC are :

    1] The vast majority of times you are rolling just one die;
    2] Engaging in CC and template weapon.

    What I would like is for CC is having some rule like : You have 2 CC weapon you get +1 Burst or some weapon like Swift Dagger +1 Burst.
    I would like to this rules to work in ARO too, having a model that can make an CC ARO action with 2/3 dice is not a big problem like having one that can fire with the same dice.

    For engaging I would like to see more rules that permit only engaged ARO. Example Assaulted enemy could asnwer only with the ARO of being B2B with your opponent.
     
  19. Nenyx

    Nenyx Well-Known Member

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    That remind me of a game where there was a nice building on the side of the board, across the midlane. This position had a good coverage on several objectives, so I put a Mk.2 sniper hidden on the roof. Then on my first turn, my opponent revealed a ninja sniper on that same roof (since the midlane was crossing the roof, that was possible). I don't remember if i could deal with the ninja or not, but for sure, i couldn't use my Mk.2 as long as the ninja was here ...

    EDIT:
    About the "only burst 1" thing, yes, CC is a risky move if the aim is to kill the target, but it's quite enough if the aim is just to engage and keep the target busy.
     
  20. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Ninja isn't very hard to take care of by a unit with TO. Just shoot it with a pistol. They're so bad shots that you should have a massive advantage (for Mk2 it's roughly 40% vs 12%) and if the Ninja tries to Engage and succeeds (36% vs 39% to kill) then just put the Ninja so your Sensor REM can Triangulate the Ninja to death.

    CC is extremely short range, which is why it should also be extremely cheap, and there are few possible changes to the CC system I can see that'd change that (it'd basically require fairly extensive changes to the order system).