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How I envision a redone CC...

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Sabin76, Aug 6, 2019.

  1. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    It was that, but not solely. My thinking was looking at the risk vs reward to shooting someone in the back vs CCing them. This is something that I think only Impersonators and Forward Deployed Camo troops can do reliably (read: without too much of an order sink). Let's use a slightly different example in a Legate hacker (access to Cybermask and a DACCW) vs Angus. The boarding shotgun certainly has a lower chance to do at least one wound (79% vs 93% with MA4), but there is no risk. Angus has a little less than a 5% chance to dodge (through change facing). However, in CC that small 4% chance the Angus has to crit (without being cancelled) means a dead Umbra.

    You can also see that you don't need to be the best gunfighter in the game in order to have comparable chances for success. I would rate an Umbra as "competent" at best with a gun.

    Now perhaps I am overstating the woes of CC. I admit I haven't looked at this as closely as would be necessary to actually implement such a change... it was simply an idea (one I presented with the purpose of hearing feedback like this). And it wasn't even the one that motivated me to write this up (that was condensing the charts into one with additional effects for the other CC-related skills).
     
  2. toadchild

    toadchild EI Aspect

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    CC got a big overhaul in N3, and is a lot more useful now. This is mostly in that if you can actually get a competent CC unit into melee (with a unit that isn't equally competent), they stand a pretty good chance of inflicting a wound. They mostly achieved this by boosting CC scores significantly (Achilles was notable for his whopping CC 20; now it's 24 with the option of going up to 27 via MA). It would also have been possible to achieve this boost by increasing burst, but the issue then is that even a basic CCW has a chance to inflict multiple wounds. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but a lot of the DA and EXP CCWs would need to be scaled down if they also had the ability to increase their burst.
     
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  3. SpectralOwl

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    CC could do with a lot of rules chopping, but the extreme restriction on Burst is very useful for keeping a CC going. If you somehow get a Fusilier into base contact with a Swiss Guard, it's going to take a whole lot of orders to safely prune that Fusilier off the enemy's key killing piece. Not to mention, it leads to some fun situations when two units who are not meant to be in CC, are forced into CC for some reason or another. One of my fondest memories in Infinity is a recent game of Decapitation, where both Heavy Infantry Lieutenants and a Designated Target wound up in the same melee, with no CC skills or stats above 15. It was the tensest slap-fight I have ever been involved in, but eventually my Aquila Guard won the day. If walking into that fight was anything close to a sure thing, even with the Designated Target providing a minor Burst advantage, it wouldn't have been as fun.

    One thing I do think would help is including a full move into the CC attack Short Skill, and making Engage a CC attack as well. Just to make it that little bit easier and more efficient to rush the last few inches into a melee instead of always shooting at close range.
     
  4. spears

    spears Well-Known Member

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    I think the key here is that the fusilier is out of cover and facing the wrong way whilst you are in 8 wielding a boarding shotgun. If you can engineer that situation then sure its probably worth the orders to do so. Turn the fusilier around and put him in cover, which is arguably a more common situation and the numbers get much better for our cybermasked Legate to use cc rather than tackling it head of with the shotgun %92 for cc vs %65 . In fact against the same fusilier in cover, Sheskin with a 5 man link arguably the best gunfighter in the game is still only on %88 to cause a wound.
    So yes if you can do something at zero risk then go for it, but otherwise Cc is often better than shooting.
     
  5. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
    Warcor

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    To expand on spears' post, unless there is a Direct Template Weapon involved, the CC trooper generally doesn't care if the target can see them on the way in - shooting in ARO will be about as ineffective as CC. The odds also shift massively in favour of CC when you start adding visibility MODs like Camo or ODD to the target.
     
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  6. Ariwch

    Ariwch The denizen of the StateEmpire salt mine

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    I think, +MA lvl burst is indeed too much until your recalculate all the CC values. However, a little burst upgrade could be fine and the idea "choose your MA lvl points from the list" is also nice.

    Maybe something like to mix them?

    A trooper with MA also gets V:Courage (but not Stealth anymore).
    When performing CC attack, a trooper with MA can either choose up to his MA level points from the advantages list or apply a special bonus according to the MA level

    Advantages:
    • +3 to the trooper CC
    • -3 to the opponent CC
    • +2 to the trooper DAM value (maybe works on Monofilament as well?)
    • Cancel special qualities of the weapon (AP, Viral, Exp, Silent...) and treat it as Non-lethal Stun instead (well, it looks like Mono can be denied this option, but Oniwabans are still fine)
    Special bonuses:
    MA lvl 1-2: none, MA lvl 3 gets +1 burst in active turn only (as it is not a BS attack, it's not afflicted by Saturation Zones), MA lvl 4 the same as lvl 3 but works in reactive too, lvl 5 works as it is now.

    And Berserk should deny using any level of MA as it is a crazy all-out attack, not a Martial Art – +6 CC and normal roll is a bonus good enough :P
     
  7. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    That is a very good point, and one I had not considered before. That would make high-B DA or EXP CCWs laugh at Mono weapons.

    Example: Let's put everyone's favorite mercenary Ninja, Saito, into CC with our least favorite TAG, the Squalo (HGL). Saito has MA4 and an EXP CCW. Right now, MA4 gives +1 burst at the expense of any extra mods. That's potentially 6 ARM rolls, since Saito is already CC24 he's not likely to lose (especially with Surprise Attack included). It's "merely" a 1% chance of 5+ wounds, but it's an 83% chance of at least 1 wound.

    In the same situation, Shinobu has an 85% chance of outright killing that Squalo, using current rules (both using MA4 for the extra B and Surprise Attack).

    I can't make the Dice Calculator handle a custom unit with CC24, making a 'bug' report now.
     
  8. Agorapocalypse

    Agorapocalypse Namurr and Nahab are girlfriends

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    How about a charge burst bonus but it cant be combined with MA/beserk/ etc... so all units can get the bonus in the first cc attack but units with higher MA skill might forgo that charge bonus to pick their custom cc mods from MA instead. So a cc18 MA 1 model uses the initial charge bonus instead of MA for +3cc, and +1 burst but doesnt kill the unit and next order spent on cc they use MA 1 to pick 1 bonus from the MA chart. On the flip side, a MA lvl 2+ model can either take the charge bonus or pick 2 from the cc chart that they might rather use based on the situation. So most often a MA lvl 3 unit will pick their lvl 3 over a charge bonus. I kinda want to test this now with my chart and charge bonus concepts. All cc chart skills give courage, MA gives stealth, NBW counts as MA lvl 2 or ignore opponents cc mods, prothieon is bts saves and has life siphon but not stealth, beserk is MA 2 but cant be used on -3 mods, no stealth and makes rolls normal. Assault is move full distance and cc attack, doesnt need los, doesnt need to be a straight line, doesnt gain charge bonus.
     
  9. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    I can get behind the "choose from this list" idea. That's fairly novel and gives you a lot more flexibility than just choosing an MA level. Would you allow doubling up on a choice? Obviously there needs to be a limit (MA4 +12 CC, lol)... and the choices would need to be balanced around whether it is possible to double up.

    Just a note on DA/EXP CCW on increased burst models... I believe the current high bar for number of possible wounds on a shot is 8 (Plasma Rifle in a link). I would certainly like to see a simultaneous reduction in the amount of those types of weapons if burst were increased. Perhaps limit EXP CCW to someone with no more that +1 burst.

    And to ijw's point, templates are certainly a problem for CC-oriented troopers... and that's what I was thinking about as to why you'd want to get behind them. However, it does reinforce the idea that a CC-specialist is still quite niche and pays a lot of points for that niche ability.
     
  10. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    The current highest bar is Achilles in combat with something on a large base, with five bystanders, for a whopping seven EXP attacks. Hard to pull off, though.
     
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  11. Agorapocalypse

    Agorapocalypse Namurr and Nahab are girlfriends

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    I elaborated more on previous posts, but each buff would be limited to being picked twice. Now burst could be limited to once if need be, but nothing more than +6, -6, +2dam, +2burst
     
  12. Leviathan

    Leviathan Hungry Caliban

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    A little simplification would be good. Increasing burst and lowering target numbers feels right in the sense that it would make it act more like shooting attacks (and potentially also giving advantage to the active turn model). Single dice CC rolls are very easy to flub, and it seems like higher burst would be a better differentiator of CC skill than being able to delete enemy models on a 12+
     
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  13. Kiwi Steve

    Kiwi Steve Well-Known Member

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    I've always viewed CC in terms of bringing a knife to a gun fight: generally a soldier should be better with his gun.

    I like the high CC values of specialists in terms of reflecting how screwed I would most probably be if somebody with very specialist martial arts training got in a fight with me (and I want able to shoot them as they approached).

    Martial arts is most effective in the game if the elite soldier attacks somebody who isn't trained in it, but the more training, the less pronounced that becomes. Eg CC 19 isn't great as it lacks the larger crit range. He's still likely to lose to the elite guy, but is much more resilient than a CC 13.

    That said I liked the OPs proposed changes to MA with progressive increments (similar to other skills in the game) rather than each MA level providing a unique effect.
     
  14. SpectralOwl

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    I feel like CC does work as it is now, but needs more ability to reach it, and more incentives over shooting. That's why I think something like Assault should be a common skill; running into CC should be the fastest way to cover ground while still gaining FTF rolls. We'd see a lot more CC outside Ninjas and the like if doing so saved an order of movement, since orders are the most valuable resource in the game and are limited during the endgame, when specialists have to reach and press buttons and troops have to control specific areas. If this path was taken, I'd suggest keeping the 1-die system as the risk is important for such a substantial boost in mobility.
     
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  15. Abrilete

    Abrilete Well-Known Member

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    This is my favourite suggestion so far in this thread.
     
  16. Wizardlizard

    Wizardlizard Well-Known Member

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    Oof assault skill more common. While my jsa thank your kind soul....boy will that make my life easier. Shikami become auto include beasts and even MM becomes a neccessary.
    I can see it but definitely a point penalty for units that gain it.
     
  17. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Assault comes with a malus fot the attacker and requires LOF. My personal experience with it on Domaru have been that it often results in them face-tanking quite often.
    I can imagine a general case Assault to have a stronger malus, while people with the actual skill gets to avoid it.
     
  18. spears

    spears Well-Known Member

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    It's also not doing an awful lot to make Cc more accessible as it still often leverages turn to face weirdness to get into lof for the assault order.
    Maybe removing the lof requirement would help assault.
     
  19. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Maybe, but then you'd be able to Assault around corners and that might be a bit much.
    I think it's more a case of which units have the skill. Asawira aren't stellar in CC and not very popular, the Domaru's hanger-ons can't move when it is declared, I'm not sure about Father-Knights, and many Berserkers really want/need Berserk which can't be declared at the same time.
    The newer Assault units seem promising, though.

    But most of all I think the issue is that you either CAN melee or you CAN'T. Units that can't will stay the hell away from units that can, because a unit that can will delete units that can't if they get too close.
    I think you need to erase that boundary so people will stop treating potent melee units like Domaru as if they have an airborne EbolaPlagueBlackDeath Pox.
     
  20. spears

    spears Well-Known Member

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    What's wrong with Domaru :P In any faction outside of Jsa Domaru would be amazing, I might be showing some bias there tbh.