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How happy are you with the Uprising book?

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by prophet of doom, Apr 30, 2018.

  1. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    You should go read the Hague and Geneva Conventions.

    Funny, the Conventions apply to insurgencies in countries, even where the insurgents are barely a gnat's ass compared to the country they're fighting.


    Well, once it goes to an attempted declaration of independence, it's a non-international armed conflict. Today's Conventions actually use the example of a declaration of independence followed by fighting as a definition of non-international armed conflict.
     
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  2. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    This is not the text book definition and forms neither requirement nor escalating factor. The requirements are for the government forces to be forced to deploy military forces (which ISS does not fall under, even if they are militarised police) and for the opposing forces to show a minimal level of organization and meet minimal humanitarian requirements. What this means is that the gnats actually have to be able to exercise territorial control. Intensity and organization. While I do not dispute that conventions apply to insurgencies, I dispute that Kuraimori counts as sufficient level of insurgency for them to apply and since I still haven't found time to read the damned book, the information others post does not mention facts that this is considered war or sufficient scale armed conflict - only opinions for and against.
    However, there is some things left hanging;
    1. Does the Concilium Convention treat conflicts on different planets as the same conflict or are they treated as individual conflicts?
    2. Once Japan has been recognised by the international community, does it constitute an act of war for Japanese leadership to encourage the insurgents on Kuraimori to keep fighting or is this conflict by necessity held separate due to insurgent organization not being able to coordinate with Japanese central leadership?
     
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  3. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    No worries there. The point is we are not talking about "during the Uprising", where Japan was not a recognized nation, but AFTER Uprising, where Japan is a Non-Aligned Nation (NaN XDDD) with a Non-Aligned Army (NA2). In that situation, trying to invade Kuraimori is, indeed, an act of war initiated by a nation against another one. We can go all the way around "but they disguise themselves as mercenaries" or somesuch standard, but if we really go down to it, Yu Jing can "up the game" by simply handling over all captured Cubes to O-12 and Aleph for a thorough post-morten, claiming they suspect it's a CA operation if they want to keep the game with some modicum of "we all play blackops", simply sending a message: do not mess with Kuraimori.
    Double weight on that course of action if JSA troops disguise themselves as civilians. Too many things can really go wrong for Japan.

    As for the example you provide: Spain already suffered a Civil War, just short of the WW2 (and it is a mess, because a side claims the other started it, and the other claims the one accusing them fabricated history), and it went into armed conflict when the army got into it and 2+ governments claimed legitimacy. In that regard, Yu Jing was into a state of Civil War during the Uprising.
    Incidentally, one of the separatists politicians in Spain is claiming that something with more than 10 centuries of history is, in fact, a fabrication made during the dictatorship. Never underestimate human stupidity.

    There is a difference between "the military are there, not firing" and "military assets being used in civilian environments". The second one tends to end with two words fairly often: "Collateral Damage".
    Believe me, I have a couple of friends who went as "blue helmets" about 3-4 times for months, and they were more "showing off" than really doing anything, aside from a single time.

    We agree there, on both points ;)
    Mind you, "not been dealt appropiately" does not mean, by any measure, "consequences-free". Whoever tells something is "free"/without a price his most likely lying, scamming, or lacking experience in life

    Even if they are, they have MILITARY units as "auxiliary", so to speak. I doubt a military unit seconded to help under civilian circumstances becomes exempt of the regular military rules...

    The book seems to be really vague, for the looks I managed to "steal" from here and there. That's another infuriating part, because it looks like it wants to justify a conclusion but knows has little idea on how to materialize that, so its as vague as possible.

    1 has no answer at this moment, I think, and we might not know about it even when the O-12 RPG splatbook comes out. As for 2, I fail to see how a government encouraging insurgents and terrorists to keep fighting would not be frown upon hardly (to say it as an understatement).
     
  4. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Military units help in more heavy duty policing actions all the time without escalating the conflict. I think Sweden is fairly unique in having laws in place preventing it (not due to any international agreements for once).
    The JSA insurgency is a military insurgency, and while the JSA insurgents in Kuraimori completely lack the organization necessary to meet the minimal humanitarian requirements, the leadership in Japan does. So the question is not whether the Kuge's actions are frowned upon, but whether they are seen as complicit part of the Kuraimori insurgents' actions and would thus count as a party in the conflict (which would escalate the conflict significantly) or whether the insurgents are seen as being their own separate entity with the Kuge at worst meddling in a conflict they shouldn't.
     
  5. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    No, military units are NEVER exempt of the regular military rules, whether your internal ones or the Treaty ones.

    I mean, that's why troops get officially "retired" when they go to work for the CIA. (Examples that have admitted it: U2 and Blackbird pilots. I've heard of others, but I don't know that I can talk about them specifically)



    That also applies to the US, the law is called "Habeas Corpus" "Posse Commitatus" here. There are technically three different levels of military force in the US: federal Active Duty units (Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines, and Coast Guard), federal Reserve units (also Army, Navy, Air Force, and Coast Guard), and then the state-level National Guard units (correspond to Army and Air Force). Only the National Guard is supposed to be deployed inside the US, federal troops are not supposed to be deployed unless someone suspends Habeas Corpus. And Habeas Corpus is a clause in the US Constitution, so it's not very easy to suspend! Posse Commitatus.

    When military units were deployed during the Rodney King riots in LA, those were California National Guard units that were called up by the Governor. That's actually one of the other standing roles for the National Guard, disaster and public disorder response. But deploying the National Guard for riots does require enacting Martial Law on some level.

    Until Federalized, National Guard units are the military forces of a State and only answer to that states Governor, though they are still held to the Uniform Code of Military Justice (a trade-off made for allowing the Federal forces to train them). It's actually one of the reasons that it took Federal forces so long to respond to Hurricane Katrina in New Orleans, the Louisiana Governor wasn't willing to make a phone call and formally request Federal aid!


    I'm pretty sure Yu Jing should be pushing the statement that the Kuge are supporting the Kuraimori violence. Not least because that puts DaiNippon on the list of nation-states that sponsor terrorists (and shreds their diplomatic image), but it also makes an argument that DaiNippon is at war with Yu Jing. And DaiNippon cannot win a war against Yu Jing.

    Most treaties of alliance note a difference between coming to the defense of an ally that has been attacked (NATO Article 5, for example, says "an attack on one is an attack on all") and assisting an ally in starting a war.
     
    #65 Section9, May 17, 2018
    Last edited: May 18, 2018
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  6. Vakarian

    Vakarian Bad Nomad

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    @Section9, one small counterpoint, although you're largely correct:

    Habeas corpus is the ability of a prisoner to sue claiming that he has been improperly imprisoned. It is a Constitutional protection but can be or can not be related to US military performing law enforcement duties inside the US.

    Posse Comitatus is a federal statute (passed shortly after Reconstruction, post-Civil War) that prevents US federal troops from engaging in law enforcement actions within the United States absent a declaration of martial law. The President can declare martial law during certain specified circumstances, during which the military may then enforce law against civilians.

    Only Congress can suspend habeas corpus - it can still apply during periods of military law (see Lincoln's fights with the Supreme Court over his suspension of it during the Civil War before Congress authroized the suspension).

    Source: I'm a prior service USAF military police officer (and now a law student).
     
  7. Errhile

    Errhile A traveller on the Silk Road

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    Also, I have a caveat.

    The Concilium Convention is not the same as the International Law of Armed Conflict as we know in early 21st century. There are differences, and we don't know where exactly those are placed.
    For example, the mercenary companies do operate offcially, and are used by the O-12 (themselves guardian of the Convention) on peacekeeping missions (see StarCo fluff). I highly doubt those mercs would do so without having the legal protection of having a combatant status, which is specifically denied to mercenaries nowadays*. I assume Infinity mercs have very specific legal protection comparable to that of a nation's army's soldiers. And quite likely additional agreements between mercenary companies thmeselves, too (there's historical precedent: back in the day of Renaissance condottieri in Italy, they tended to deal very fair with other mercs. For practical reasons: they were professionals dealing with other professionals, and the guy you fought last week might turn in as a new recruit tomorrow, or the company you've defeated a month ago might be kicking your butt next week...nothing personal about it, just business).

    * of course, as it was told back at that seminar I participated in, if someone manages to actually prove you were serving as a mercenary in an armed conflict, it means only that you had a really crappy lawyer!
     
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  8. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Strictly tangential, but this triggered a question; why aren't Swiss Guard part of Military Orders? They're the Papal mercenaries and about as church soldiery as you get in modern times, after all, or did they drop this distinction somewhere during the 23rd century to get adopted into Pan-O along with the Swiss banks?
     
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  9. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    Because they're Papal mercenaries. They aren't sworn in as priests or anything along those lines, but are regular soldiers. All of the assorted orders are resurrections of the old medieval orders, and are priests as well as knights and soldiers.
     
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  10. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    That's an easy one: Switzerland is part of PanO, and the Swiss Guard profile is that of an actual Swiss military, instead of troops the Vatican pays to protect their country.
     
  11. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    Except they are the Pontifical Swiss Guard, seconded as the Special Action Group of the PMC Heavy Infantry.
     
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  12. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    It's because the Swiss Guard's primary duty is to protect the pope,who is based on Neoterra. Not fight aliens in Paradiso or pirates on Human Edge. Military Orders forces represent, for lack of a better term, a crusading army, and the Swiss Guard does not participate in that.

    What's really weird to me is that the Swiss Guard doesn't have Religious. And that the Aquila doesn't have Strategos or Advanced Command or something.
     
  13. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Probably because they never were any more religious nutcases than any other mercenaries, just more dependable than the average, which is why there were so many of them hired for palatial guard duties around Europe. They're not motivated by religion so much as duty and tradition.
     
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  14. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    They're definitely motivated by religion. Have you seen their swearing-in ceremony?
     
  15. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    My point is, being religious isn't the same thing as being Religious. Religious with capital letter is also abandoning pragmatism.
     
  16. Fyeya

    Fyeya Yakitori over a light flamethrower

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    As a Religious person, I would disagree.

    I think it simply altering your base logic system - what is pragmatic for someone who believes in life after death is different than someone who does not.

    For a believer, it is perfectly rational to be willing to regard death as a lesser of two evils in certain situations - so it isn't a loss of pragmatism, but rather a replacement of logical foundations with different base level understandings of the world, which then informs your pragmatism in different ways.
     
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  17. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Look, we're getting off topic, but it's not a case of attributing my own worldviee on what religion is, but what pragmatism in face of overwhelming odds are. Simply being religious does not make you march into enemy fire shouting Got Mit Uns like the Swedes did when they were attempting to correct the Pope's erroneous worldview, but would still allow you to surrender when all hope of victory is gone like the Swiss Guard (technically a different unit than the papal guard) did during the French revolution (and then get cut down while in chains because they were facing a mob out for blood).
     
  18. Fyeya

    Fyeya Yakitori over a light flamethrower

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    Sure, but it could also motivate you to keep fighting a lost cause because you believe it will make a difference beyond your own survival - I mean, heck, the Samurai did at Shiroyama even when their cause was long lost. To their mind, their warrior spirit demanded no less. Also, the Swiss guard did fight a hopeless battle just to buy time for the Pope to escape in the past, and that's why the unit got the papal commendation and the position as papal guard into perpetuity.

    I mean, I guess it's just a matter of how you define pragmatism.
     
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  19. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Oops!

    Editing.
     
  20. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    *sigh* again, not an argument that you're automatically courageous and refuse orders to retreat just because you believe in a god. The most famous people who did that through history is probably the Hashashins or berserkers who accomplished this not through religion but through drugs.
    Retreating is how a well trained and professional soldier acts in this game, it oddly doesn't have a rule for exceptionally cowardly or selfish troops for contrast. Troops with distinction are courageous, but still retreat and would still duck into cover instead of stand shouting for more punishment if required to do so.
    There is probably grounds for arguing the Swiss Guard should have Courage due to acts of their namesakes, but Religious is a step far enough that I think they'd need to really motivate it in fluff - you know like... they... didn't... do with Shaolin. Hmm... Let's just face it, somethings in this game just doesn't make internal sense.
     
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