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How exactly is Climb supposed to work?

Discussion in '[Archived]: N3 Rules' started by Teslarod, May 2, 2018.

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  1. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    Of course not, they spend a new order hence second climb and they can only move tot he top, no more, essentially they waste an order to get on the top of the wall, far from a free movement.

    A climbing plus model on the other hand would keep moving.
     
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  2. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    Which is what wolfs diagram was showing.
     
  3. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    ah right should be 86mm, basic maths and after midnight don't mix well with me it seems.
     
  4. Wolf

    Wolf https://youtube.com/@StudioWatchwolf

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    I presume that because the unit must keep its base fully in contact with the scenery throughout the Climb, it ends its first Order fully within the height of the scenery - no part of the base protrudes above the edge. @psychoticstorm So does this correctly illustrate having to use two Climb Orders?


    Fig. 2 Using multiple Climb Orders to scale scenery.
    If the height of scenery plus a unit's base width exceeds their first MOV attribute, it will be necessary to spend two Orders to scale it using Climb. The illustration shows how to manage multiple Climb Orders. Note that the unit's base must stay fully in contact with the surface throughout the Climb Order.
    Climb in Two Orders SML.png
     
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  5. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    I am confused by maths it seems... the 85mm wall is big enouph to stop a 100mm model from climbing it in one order.

    The illustration above is correct, a model climbing a wall it cannot clear with one order will need to spend two orders (or more) to climb the obstacle, the final order that has sufficient movement to make the model climb on top, places the model on the top edge of the wall it climbed and stops the model from moving further regardless of movement it still has remaining.
     
  6. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    So the conclusion here is that any building >3" high requires multiple orders to climb for S2 models. S3+ models are unlikely to be able to climb most standard infinity terrain in a single order.

    The jury is out whether one can vault a parapet and ignore it in the 75/3" requirement?
     
  7. Wolf

    Wolf https://youtube.com/@StudioWatchwolf

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    I’ll sketch up a couple of versions so PsychoticStorm can address it clearly.

    --
    A peculiarity I’ve noticed is that the full climb route up and over parapets on Mototronica scenery isn’t quite short enough to manage in a single Order. I find the path somewhere between 2mm and 6mm too long (102-108mm total) which is unsettling.

    However, Im sometimes challenged with dyscalculia (which is a bizarre experience) and found it quite a struggle to get the measurements. I’m going to dig out a micrometer (for the calipers, not the precision!) and perhaps someone else could check the path length?

    You’d think that if someone were designing scenery for a game like this, they’d set rooftops at a height that’s either clearly reachable; exactly reachable, or clearly out of reach. So I wrote to a company that makes Infinity scenery asking them if their roofs are set at a particular height, and if so what it is. Maybe they can give us s clue about CB’s intentions.
     
    #127 Wolf, May 10, 2018
    Last edited: May 10, 2018
  8. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
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    It doesn't really apply to S3 troopers as they're almost universally 6-4 or 6-6 MOV (as are a lot of the S4 units that can climb), but yes slow S5 and S6 troopers are going to need two Orders for a 3"-high building.

    Also, having just gone and checked some MAS building, the storeys are only 60mm high, less than 2.5".

    The Climb rules specifically call out the General Movement Rules, which contain vaulting.
     
  9. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    As I said I can see the "parapet debate" go a long way, personally I believe that the "parapet" or whatever you want to call the "wall section" that is above what one could consider the top of the climbing wall to be vaultable from either side of the wall, its cleaner and easier that way.
     
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  10. Wolf

    Wolf https://youtube.com/@StudioWatchwolf

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    This is of interest to me, thanks. I'm still interested to know what measurements people find for Mototronica/Ice Storm scenery?

    We know that Infinity gameplay is extremely delicate - fragile even, which makes it all the more interesting, and we all know that scenery and its size has a very dramatic effect. So it's very hard to believe that CB could talk to their affiliates about scenery and not have some kind of design in mind. As I say, one would expect that units can or can't definitely Climb in a single Order.
     
  11. Wolf

    Wolf https://youtube.com/@StudioWatchwolf

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    For the record, I don't really buy that 'vault' is directly applicable to this situation from the rules. I don't mind a ruling that includes it, because it makes sense of the scenery we all have to hand, but it's not an obvious application. My misgivings are around the business of keeping the base flat on the wall at all times, which makes the vault rule very difficult to readily apply.

    As usual, I've no particular axe of my own to grind here. It's just that if you wanted this application, you could write less than a dozen words and remove the ambiguity that naturally arises for scenery they've had around for years. eg. "Even whilst Climbing, units can vault scenery narrower than their base".

    On the other hand, we might naturally expect it to be written in either way, eg. "Whilst Climbing, units may NOT vault scenery narrower than their base as they would in normal movement" so maybe my own argument doesn't work as well as I'd like! :grin:
     
    #131 Wolf, May 10, 2018
    Last edited: May 10, 2018
  12. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
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    Well, you couldn't say it like that, because that doesn't match the rules for vaulting. :-(

    For reference:

    Red Veil buildings from ground to flat area of roof: 72mm/a bit less than 3"
    Older card buildings from ground to flat area of roof: 44mm/~1.75"
    Blue & white Plastcraft building from ground to flat area of roof: 65mm/slightly over 2.5"
     
  13. Daniel Darko

    Daniel Darko Well-Known Member
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    It is an assumed conclusion (pro: by the big fish), but noone (CB?) knows for sure.

    And due to playability: It is not one or two orders. With "getting in contact" and continue to move at the new level" it is 3 or 4 orders. Absolutely unplayable if your not Ariadna (with 2 full combat groups).
     
  14. Wolf

    Wolf https://youtube.com/@StudioWatchwolf

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    Thanks.
     
  15. Wolf

    Wolf https://youtube.com/@StudioWatchwolf

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    Yeah, but once we start trying to make the rules say what we want to say, we're fucked. The only workable approach is to be clear about what the rules are supposed to say - because if we don't know that, we have no position to work from at all.

    If we establish that position, people can agree a workable alternative; we can universally house-rule it, and we can send our messengers - Woodsy and Kostas :smile: to present our request to the Spart... I mean Gallicians. I'm sure they'll see our point of view.

     
    #135 Wolf, May 10, 2018
    Last edited: May 10, 2018
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  16. Sanjuro

    Sanjuro Active Member

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    Nice. So were all clear about climbing scenery thats higher than the units mov minus its base width. Can someone explain whether its true the base does stay in contact with the wall the whole time which maybe explains how the system works. Maybe thats for lof but maybe they think the trooper goes from boots on the ground to boots on the wall like rappelling
     
  17. Sanjuro

    Sanjuro Active Member

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    Correct me if wrong but vaulting allows for scenery that’s lower than the silo but how is it lower if the trooper is now flat to the wall ? You’re making vaulting into a long jump not a high jump. Also isn’t standard scenery low enough climb in one order without the vault fix anyway
     
    #137 Sanjuro, May 10, 2018
    Last edited: May 10, 2018
  18. Robock

    Robock Well-Known Member

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    not sure, if you don't vault the lip that means you would climb up on one side and back down the other side. So a 1/2" lip (i haven't measured standard scenery) will add 1" to your measured climbing distance. That might make standard scenery unable to be climbed in a single order.
     
    #138 Robock, May 10, 2018
    Last edited: May 10, 2018
  19. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
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    Wolf said 'scenery narrower than their base' which isn't a restriction listed for vaulting, just that the obstacle is shorter than the trooper's Silhouette. Which a parapet is almost guaranteed to be.
     
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  20. macfergusson

    macfergusson Van Zant is my spirit animal.

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    That is explicitly how Climbing works:

    • For visualization purposes, troopers using the Climb Skill move with the underside of their bases in contact with the vertical surface.
     
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