"traversing terrain less than a basewidth wide" Ok so well measure all the vertical movement but hecatons right the rules dont allow us to make nonvertical movement do they. This stuff doesnt make any sense so you guys are going to have to make some statements outside of the rule book you can always change it later
Yeah... I thought Storm was responding to me. I specifically said that there wasn't a parapet to distinguish the two issues.
Just a small reminder regarding how CB rules traditionally operate: if the illustration contradicts the text, then text applies and illustration doesn't. Illustrations are there to reflect the rules, not override them.
I wonder why some of you are talking about free horizontal movement. (Maybe overthinking - ARO-engage is also a lot of free movement if timed correctly even through narrow gates.) Well, you pay an entire order for the whole climb-move. It is not free. I don't consider the vertical-move to be an extra-move at all, it's part of how-climbing-works. I guess, that is the reason, why the vertical-move is not separatly mentioned in the rules - because it's not an issue... and you have to read it very tight to find it . RAI for me is seen in the diagram and as mentioned before. It works fine and does not interfere with other rules (*cough* but vaulting). 1) You pay an entire order. 2) meeting the requirements, you move up/down a wall with a maximum of your [first-mov-value]'' 3) if you reach the end of the wall and your base fits there, you put the trooper down. "Climb allows only movement up or down vertical surfaces; this means troopers cannot use their excess Climbing movement to keep moving on a horizontal surface once they are done climbing. Once the trooper reaches a level surface, his movement ends for that Order (see diagram)." stresses the difference between climb and climbing plus. As a RAI-side-note-thought: If you substract the horizontal-move from the vertical-move (as Psychoticstorm sees it) and you have a S3 or bigger you are almost down to N2 where the movement-limits of jump and climb made them unusable. I guess that is, what Hecaton thinks, when he says: "It is unworkable." It is not about using two orders; it is about having obsolete options.
Hardly. What made N2 Climb a really bad option (because the distance travelled per Order was identical to now) is that you usually ended up falling off the wall due to multiple PH Rolls.
It isn't free, but it is beyond the limits of what's allowed. Of importance is also that a trooper can not stand with its base unsupported. There is literally only one position for it to be in to "reach" horizontal ground when Climbing, so the definition or distinction of what reach means is not relevant. You reach horizontal ground only and exactly when your base is fully touching the ground. When you're still climbing on the wall or when you are vaulting, you can not by rules definitions have reached horizontal ground. I.e. there is no toeing in on the floor you're climbing to, you're either fully on it or not yet reached it.
Lets reset a bit the discussion, I did not say anything about parapets my example was a plain 3,5" wall with sufficient space on top for a base to sit, it is crucial you understand that the model must have sufficient movement to reach a point were the whole base fits and is stable. If the model cannot reach the top with sufficient movement to make sure it has sufficient space for its entire base, spend another order. I can see a long discussion about vaulting and a big philosophical debate from both sides if a parapet or any wall at the edge of the floor works as part of the greater wall or if it is a vaultable object once the model has reached the "floor area", I will not go into this debate, definitely not until we get the basics of climbing clearly understood.
Good; thank you. Can you confirm if the following is a correct illustration of your explanation @psychoticstorm? Spoiler: Illustration: Climb Order Expenditure The last line should better read "if the scenery were even slightly higher, it would require at least two Climb Orders to reach the top of the scenery"
THAT is only true, if climbing was a short skill in N2! I double checked. It was. So climbing wasn't a total mess - but at least jumping was. And that PH Rolls really were some evil bummers.
@psychoticstorm Do these correctly illustrate your clarifications, please? Spoiler: Climb - Order Expenditure Order Expenditure for Common Skill - Climb Units may scale scenery in a single Climb Order if the height of that scenery plus the width of the its base does not exceed its first MOV attribute. Fig.1 shows that a unit with MOV 10-10 may successfully scale a piece of scenery of up to 75mm height in a single Climb Order Fig. 2 shows that the same unit may not successfully scale a piece of scenery higher than 75mm. In this case, the movement would require 2 Climb Orders.
I think they are correct, in the second illustration with the second climb the model is just placed on the top.
Of course I am not convinced (how boring would that be) and in good old forum-fashion I prefer to criticise (analyse) the other (absolutely acceptable) opinion instead of bolstering my own statement. The most uncomfortable thought in psychoticstorm's version (just call it that way, to give it a name - there are others, who also agree) is the visual interpretation of the process of getting on the wall and getting over the edge on top. _/| To get everyone on the same page of what is happening, I assume our trooper is moving up (as shown by Wolf): When do you calculate your "horizontal"-movement? When you start the climb on the ground or when you leave the wall at the upper edge? (Or do we now realize, we must pay twice for the base-size?!) And I am especially keen on your argument, why this is the logical and correct way. (And I guess, if that is somewhere hidden in the rules and you can point it out to me -> well, then you can count me in) _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Hm, before I get converted to the climb-must-not-be-easy-faction, I better hastily share some RAI-"arguments" from my point of view: While searching for rule-references I found lean-out to be something with "hidden" movement in an entire order skill. They explain how you get your LoF and call it a move, but all the inches are assumed fitting. No one breaks sweat, when a MI (Mov 4-2) at a cliff in very difficult terrain has to lean out next to a 1'' ah... obstacle of proper height - for example. And therefor - I guess - the RAI is, that the "horizontal" move is just hidden in the whole entire-order-climb-skill. And there for both diagrams are right! Ha! (Oh boy, this is thin....) (Ahem, and if you really want to find the "horizontal"-move-inches, they are maybe in the second mov-value, which has not been used while climbing up, no?)
Some things to consider: If you are base to base with a wall that you would like to climb, and you start measuring from the leading edge of your base (where it touches the wall), there is no "free movement" to worry about at the beginning of a climb. You are already at the base of the wall for your measurement point, and you simply measure upwards from there. I think IJW has pointed this out in the thread already, but the basic rules of movement require you to always use the same point on your base for both ends of a measurement. Separately, keep in mind that with a vault there is precedent for ignoring vertical movement when making a horizontal movement. The up and down nature of a vault does not count against your MOV value in that Order. This COULD be applied to how Entire Order Climb works (but should it?) when dealing with necessary horizontal movement when the primary direction is vertical.
That is true, if your measurement point is at the front of the base. If you choose it to be at the back, do you have to "pay" the inch before getting up the wall? And if you have to take a break hanging, because the wall is too high for your mov-value, are you allowed to choose another measurement point for the next order... This is gold! Very much interpretation and nothing valid for anyone, who does not want to find the answer, but definitely a very fair interpretation! That is RAI. Still - we need a FAQ to make it a plausible ad-on to the General Movement Rules. (Guys, I love this section of the forum the most! (Although I often lose any certainty on the most basic rules you discuss.) Keep it up and thanks for sharing your analytical interpretations of a well-intentioned system, with some "obvious" RAI who are kept secret and some blatant holes in the RAW. And don't be shy: As long as you are arguing, you love infinity. )
To kind of attack this problem from a different angle - I think the intention of parapets and vault-able scatter terrain is to provide fun ways to get cover, not to introduce tedium in to the game. That being said, I'd just house rule that if a model can vault through something, then it can also climb or jump through it for free. I'd then say that the leading edge part of the base that you're measuring from needs enough MOV value to land on a spot where your base can fit horizontally on a surface, otherwise you're stuck on the side of the wall in the case of a climb OR you don't make it and fall in the case of a jump (which makes jumping dangerous, as it should be?)... At the risk of being redundant, during a climb, you still get the "free" horizontal movement on the horizontal surface being climbed over if it is less than the width of the base. I do see a lot of laxness when people measure jumps - they often don't account for the width of their base on the landing spot. They kind of just measure from the front of their base to the closest spot on the surface they want to end up on, and if it's within their MOV then they put their whole base there, basically getting 25"/40"/55" of movement for free, and then it's on you to be that guy, the "rules lawyer" to clean it up...
they are placed on the top.....so they get free movement of the base width? To clarify, what do you mean by this statement, the mini has insufficient move with 10" to get to the top and place their base flat on the roof. Unless as per the diagrams in the rulebook the horizontal placement is free. The walls are 85mm high, the unit has a 100 mm of movement, its base width is 25 mm wide. Unless the placement at the top is "Free" the miniature cannot be placed on top of the building because 85 mm + 25 mm is 110 mm and 10 mm to far for the base to be fully supported by the horizontal surface as per the rules. So unless it gets that 25 mm base width for free as we've all been saying (And in accordance with the rulebook diagrams) baring you and IJW, then it cannot be placed at the top. So how do you reach the conclusion that the second image is wrong?
To be honest, being in contact with a wall means to touch the wall with ANY part of your Silhouette. One could even claim to be able to measure from the top of the mode's Silhouette, for what it's worth... And due to the new definition on base contact i could even agree on that. Climb is an order intensive way of moving. I'd really like to see a "free" placing on top if you reach it, the permissive way is more friendly in regards to an already limiting manouvre.
