I keep coming back to Winterfor because I love the minis, aesthetic, and background. That said, as a semi-competitive multi-faction player I always really struggle to make the faction work, and usually opt for something else. Specifically, it feels like their strengths can be accomplished by other factions, without losing out on their major weaknesses. The best example of this is White Company, where I can still enjoy playing with fusiliers, nokken, nisse, and the almighty Karhu without giving up AD and camouflage. WC even brings smoke and white noise, which is a total game changer if you’re used to playing PanO. Other PanO factions seem to compare more favorably against them as well. If Im in the mood for knights, then MO is the way to go. Orcs? Varuna, Acon, or WC (again). Locust? Then I can benefit from HD in NCA. Its a tough feeling to get past while trying to make the faction work. Winterfor brings a wider range of options then the aforementioned comparisons, but because all of these options smash faces really well, but do little else, it begins to feel like redundancy, rather than breadth. The one unit Ive been looking closely at is the Vargar. This seems to be the really unique selling point, and it has a great range of options. That K1 minelayer is a beautiful profile. The HRL forward observer? Lots of fun. The must take seems to be the sensor profile. It can mix in with orcs and bring along some wildcards (Karhu) and then maybe there’s some potential for a really self-sufficient face smashing link. Curious what others think. Is there something really stand-out that the faction can do better than others, or is a cross faction comparison going to be rough for these guys in any context?
Yes, they have fantastic MSV allocation and gunfighting. MO has a lot of MSV on really limited units. NCA has some solid msv units but they are cost and build prohibitive. SAA can put down a good amount of MSV1 with a single unit and an oddball msv2. Varuna has a single msv2 profile and msv1 profile. SWF has wildcard msv1, multirifles and feuerbach and msv2 hmgs and msr which gives fantastic coverage on key pieces that can link. Further, these stack with vis mods making their attack vectors very lethal.
I'm happy to disagree in this particular matter :) I was one of that guys who wrote long forum topics back in N3 when Winterforce came to complain about how the army was, but I did my best to do winterforce work, and finally I had success. It wasn't easy, but I did it. Now in N4 Winterforce works same as in N3 but better, so "cool". To me Winterforce even being "Panoceania style to the bone, you know -shoot first, ask later-" looks pretty different to the others Panoceanian options. If I want to play flexible fireteams and a lot of them (core+haris+duo) I will choose for sure Winterforce, even if I want to play a little to CC I will go for Winter instead OM. I could say... If I want to play "extra defensive" mode I will pick Varuna. If I want to play "defensive" plus "strike" mode I will go for Acontecimento. If I want to play to shoot the enemy and wait for him Neoterra will be the choice. If I want to play durability plus "to shoot" the enemy, with a dose to "I will go for you" OM will do the trick. And for the last, if I want to play "to shoot" and "to hunt" the enemy, I will choose Winterforce. The trick to play Winterforce relays on "to play fireteams", you probably will have at least one option to do a "fireteam core" every turn and the one you will need for every situation. The "surprise" you can give to an opponent while playing Winterforce is the way you will configure the fireteams. Thanks to the Karhus and the wildcard characters you can deploy a big amount of possibilities. Even if you want, you can play to take the center, but this will be an extreme list with a lot of mimetism -6. If the enemy isn't ready to face this, and against Winterforce isn't usual to play on the half table, it can be really hard to "take out" the Nokkens and Locust (it isn't an style for every mission, but for some it could be fun). Of course, Nokkens and Locust aren't the best to take the half table, so Winter is an army which struggles to fight in the center of the board, but you have the tools to "clean it": Liankai as a solo hunter, Shona and Gunnar as part of a fireteam "duo or haris". Even they work as defensive barrier. Not many expensive targets wants to be or to move close to this guys, so you can have a sort of "clean area" or "danger area" close to your deployment or where they will be. I let you my "base list" for Winterforce. To defend on the long range I do a lot of use of the "pulse flash rems", and if the situation requires it, of the Karhu and the Orc, but not as a regular strategy. In the close range I relay on my CC specialists, all of them with templates. If I have to attack gunnar+bullet will be a choice, and the other will be the nisse haris with shona + machinist. Both can too to push buttons. And the core will do the job in the last turn, when "duo" and "haris" will be dead or broken. Even if I would have to I could do a "nisse's fireteam core" thanks to the wildcards. Spoiler: WinterBaseList Winter ────────────────────────────────────────────────── GRUPO 1 10 1 FUSILERO (Teniente) Fusil Combi / Pistola, Arma CC. (0 | 10) FUSILERO (Sanitario) Fusil Combi ( | MediKit) / Pistola, Arma CC. (0 | 12) FUSILERO (Sanitario) Fusil Combi ( | MediKit) / Pistola, Arma CC. (0 | 12) KARHU Feuerbach(+1R), Minas AP / Pistola, Arma CC. (1.5 | 35) ORCO Ametralladora / Pistola, Arma CC. (1.5 | 37) FUSILERO (Hacker, Disp. Hacker) Fusil Combi ( ) / Pistola, Arma CC. (0.5 | 15) SHONA CARANO Subfusil, Nanopulser(+1R), Pulso Flash / Pistola, Arma CC EXP. (0 | 27) MAQUINISTA WinterFor (Mimetismo [-3], Terreno [Total]) Fusil Combi, Cargas-D ( | GizmoKit) / Pistola, Arma CC. (0 | 18) LIANG KAI Chain Rifle, Escopeta Ligera, Pulso Flash / Pistola, Arma CC EXP. (0 | 21) NISSE Ametralladora / Pistola, Arma CC. (1.5 | 34) GRUPO 2 5 1 GUNNAR Fusil MULTI(+1 Daño), Chain-colt / Pistola, Trench-Hammer, Arma CC Shock. (0 | 34) BULLETEER Spitfire / Arma CC PARA(-3). (1 | 23) FUGAZI DRONBOT Pulso Flash / Arma CC PARA(-3). (0 | 7) FUGAZI DRONBOT Pulso Flash / Arma CC PARA(-3). (0 | 7) FUGAZI DRONBOT Pulso Flash / Arma CC PARA(-3). (0 | 7) 6 CAP | 299 Puntos Abrir en Infinity Army Of course you can have Nisse and Karhu in White Co, but none of them do fireteams, they are solo pieces, or as much, "duo", so it isn't the same flavour as Winterforce or Strength. I hope all of this helps you to have fun with Winterforce.
I am not sure if it is worth to open a new thread so I ask my question here first: With the new Box of Vargars - which look quite nice - does anyone know, what purpose they serve? I mean, yes they have albedo which can be useful, but do I need four (the Spitfire is already out via the Beyond Box and mine is painted already, but somehow I kicked him out of the list for something I consider more useful) of them? The Spitfire can work alone, if you expect massive MSV use ... so could be useful against Yu Jing (WB has a lot of MSV1, in ISS its usualy the Hsien, in IA the Haidao and very often you see Rui Shi) but honestly, do you use aktive Albedo against this? Do you ever used active albedo? I had one or even two opportunitys with Lei Gong, but apart from this, I never missed it. So you can do the Spitfire - or from february 22 on - any of the other profiles and mix it in a Orc haris, maybe with a cheap wildcard (if any). This gives a haris from 73 (with Agnes-Proxy) to 82 (with Quinn), if you take the tinbot orc and the cheapest Varg, HRL FO for example. While the other three Vargs provide maximum security for your other minis on the shelf ;-) Yes yes, no need to put all four on the table, but ... a Varg haris maybe? They offer minelayer, which is very rare in SWF with a nice 24" gun but still on a 30 pts MI without any visual mods (except albedo of course) and the not so super useful super jump. Terrain Total is not bad, to be honest, but still 30 pts ... Nisse, Nokken, Orc, Locust. Wild Parrot and Combi/Flamer are nice to have, but nothing were I think yes for 25-30 pts I get one of these. What you think?
They were made to be proxied as Karhu(?) But seriously, I assume they're making them because they're AVA 5 in the faction and think people will want them for the weapon options and/or fireteams. I've never had any luck with the one Varg model I own though so I'm not sure what having more would do for me.
A Vargar Haris of HRL, K1 MMR and Combi/HFL (with or without WildParrot) can do good work hunting, especially in the first turn. Find those MSV pieces and put them down, or whittle away their Order Pool. There’s not a target you don’t have an answer for.
It’s my opinion that they were made to make me buy them due to my compulsive need to own all the minis… but that’s just my conspiracy theorist side talking. On another note I’ve had some luck with my vargar but only the standard one from svalarheima. I Haven’t really tried with the other profiles yet.
The K1 MMR is a kick in the pants. I used one at the last Salt Lake Showdown to put down a Shang Ji AP HMG in a single order.
But they have no Multi Rifles, so not the best proxys ;-) I still wonder about AVA 5 the most other albedo units have AVA 1 (Yu Jing and Aleph have characters and the Nomads Vostok is quite expensive and to be honest, I think 98 % of the Nomad Players choose the FTO with has no albedo. That leaves Pan O with two units that have the skill and not so much need to put down MSV, because Pan O has no smoke. Possible. But how many MSV do you expect? If I know my opponent plays MSV heavy, that will make sense, but otherwise I invest in a Orc haris and maybe put an Varg in it for the possiblity of MSV hunting. Troops with mime -6 are no easy target for the Vargs, if you use the HF, you have to very close with your 1 wound 30 pts MI. Thats says not much. In one game my Shang Ji Hacker died of a single burst of combi rifle (he had no cover and poor rolls). But I agree, K1 MMR is nice weapon against armoured targets.
They do seem quite mean I’ll have to give that K1 a go. But I think Shang Ji just has bad luck. Mine died to rifle shots from usarf… This is a good team, very survivable with decent shooting and I’ve also had luck with an orc/fusilier five man with karhu with feuerbach in.
Well, I expect plenty of MSV, so I’m still enjoying that. Beyond that? Anything outside of MSV2/3 will be struggling against Mimetism(-6), so I’m not going to let that keep me from taking troops that have some good weapon and mobility options. You don’t have to agree, and likely don’t. I’m simply stating they’ve been useful for me and have done enough work that I keep coming back to them, much like the Bøyg.
I really don't know how CB takes the choice to do one or another motel and put in production. I don't think they take in too much consideration the "game". The problem with the Vargars aren't albedo, weapons, superjump N4 dowgrade or even the high cost they have... nothing of this will truly matter if they would have any interesting LT.option and not the only "Uma choice" (in my opinon one of the worst Infinity profiles). Is the same for the Nisses. Is in this case where the Vargar loose, because a "hari's nisses" have more options in "game terms". Albedo is cool, but while it only endures the first round, it will be a skill which always will loose in comparison with others. It is sad because Vargar looks like amazing models, but I doubt many players did use of more than one or maybe two as regular. Maybe for missions with the Limited Insertion extra and missions which require a high HI presence they will have a chance as Orcs companions. In other case the choice will be "one vargar, probably the K1 guy" plus 2 wildcards, or Nisse (hmg) plus one wildcard+winterforce machinist. In game terms sometimes the CB decisions don't make any sense, I wish they do, but no. They will be shell a lot of Vargar's Boxes... sure, because they are too cool... So, while sales do the numbers, they cointnu
Yes its kinda funny how long they wait to release the Karhu - the #1 mulit-tool light infanterie unit in SWF, that fits in every fireteam and has one of the best Feuerbach platforms in the game. Instead give us a box of the - in my opinion - second worst new unit that come with SWF (Infarmierer is still #1). Their dire foes, White Banner, still waits on the Tain Guo and if you want the mime/msv MI called Ye Mao, you got now, a year after the beyond box? The second loadout, which is still not the normal guy/engineer variant, that was only availiable together with a lim. ed. Jotum ... But anyway the Vargs look ace so I will try to find a use ;-)
Just a quick message about Vargar : I like the Haris proposed in the box a lot. Why ? Because they are good hunters/strikers/objective grabbers. Yes, they don't have a lot of firepower for themselves but I don't think they need to. If there is a long range ARO problem, you can always put a Karhu FB and a second Wildcard (Agnes, for example) just for the time you need them, then you send them hopping on roofs to get unforeseen LoF on juicy light targets, take a console on the way, leave a Wildparrot next to the MSV sniper in Core of your opponent and so on. They have a lot of tools and great mobility to destroy things your opponent hid. They aren't meant for heavy firepower. Karhu and ORCs are there for that. So, if you need a lot of firepower, just link it in your Vargar team until you don't need it anymore and bring back your good old Fusiliers Core together then. And seriously, MSV ARO pieces are everywhere nowadays. Nisse, Karhu, Kamau, Brawler, Haidao, Taagma, Gao-Rael, Bolt, Grenzer and so on. And there are as much assault units with it : Intruder, Mukhtar, Kahru, Nisse, Aquila, Gwailo, Charontid, Asura, Hsien... they can do a good job at being dissuasive against those if you deploy well enough. Albedo, like Holoprojector, has a lot of uses outside of just winning FtF. What SWF excels at is getting the high ground in the middle of the table and use it to control the whole table. Vargar are one of those units that are good at it and are excellent if you expect a lot of MSV, like against Guilang and Dart.
You listed a lot of profiles with MSV usually used as ARO piece, but most of them are included in one five members fireteam, so they will have SS granted. And probably the will be not alone as ARO piece, so it will be others without MSV. A big problem for the vargars. I like albedo, even I played a lot with it, not in winterforcer but in Acontecimento. I could be bolt enough to say that Drakios is the best albedo unit in the whole game (red fury option). He has a combination of skills and equipment which makes him a really really interesting piece to "go into the enemy zone ignoring the MSV aro pieces" while doing harm all the way, even if he has the chance he alone can defeat a fireteam, because the heavy flamethrower on the REMS. Even if you don't want to takes the chances you can let the rems menacing the ARO pieces so the rival will have to struggle with it in his turn. And when Drakios died you only will loose one order. And yet I think albedo need to be changed, a little. Making the skill electable, in which round begins it will a whole new world for that troopers with it. The case with the vargars is too different to the Drakios one. If you are in a full haris of vargars, you will shoot higher burst but with worse odds to impact, because they will ignore the -6 mod (SS). Still, as you said you could take the "no face to face" approach and let the vargars there, half of the table... but they don't have good stats to avoid templates and only one wound. You will have expended a lot of orders to put the haris there and a lot of points too, to easy for one skirmisher with shotgun. Even if we are doing use of one unique vargar plus wildcards, we could face a trade. The ARO shooter could play lucky and finish one member of the haris. That one which have to push the button. If you are in a five member fireteam the problems mentioned above only goes up. The superjump being "jump as short move", but yet jump, is other of the heavy reasons why the mixed fireteam of vargars don't work too well. You will need at least one extra order to take the high ground advantage, and the wildcard will remain on the floor, where the danger ist... The Vargars are one of those profiles with a lot of cool skills but on paper. Here are the many reasons why I only can think in one vargar in my list, maybe two, but not all of them, the worst as I mentioned earlier: the Lt options (one of the worst flaws of Winter). I could even see why Vargars could look amazing in design terms if we focus on a lot of profiles on White Banner: a good number of MSV in camo state. If we think on vargars as the hunters of this kind of profiles, putting down the MSV heavy menaces for "winter skirmishers" (nokkens and locusts) they sound pretty amazing... But again, this sound well enough on paper and on paper only. When the game comes, for the time vargars would had a chance to clean the table it will be late or the waste or orders will be more than a lot. I'm truly curious about how could look an armylist with the "vargar haris from the box", could you please give us some example, as you can imagine after all my complains I have issues putting the three guys together, too much SWC in one place. Maybe I'm too confortable with my others Winterlist so I don't see how this box could work or I see too may probles for these guys. Every list I try has only one vargar, the k1+minelayer and for that role, the "haris rule + wildcards" I' more confortable with the HMG-Nisse.
But I’m not going to be shooting the MSV trooper in the full Fireteam: Core. I’m going to be shooting his buddies while he can’t see me.
Which is one of the things I, personally, like so much about the Vargar. No, Super Jump is not as good as it was, but it still offers a good way to get to interesting positions. And if I'm leveraging it the best I can, those support elements for the MSV ARO troop are going to be far enough away that they really can't get me while I move into a better position to take them on.
Well, as I said, you don't fight those guys with Vargar. You fight them either with your Core and the Kahru in it or you link them with two wildcards, including your Kahru FB, to take down this ARO piece and then you send your Vargar go hunting while keeping in mind that you still need your Karhu to be elsewhere. Thanks to NCO, you have quite a good amount of orders in your main group to do things. Personally, I don't use them to do amazing things. I don't think they are fit for this if you play against a good player (while they are sure to do amazing things against newcomers). They are just fit to kill one or two SK, swipe the mines around, take the objective and retreat their in the heights or back while putting some mines during their retreat. They are good at ARO duty for secondary fire lanes and keeping in check a part of your DZ too. And they are good Haris killers. So, yeah, no grand things, but things that do give me an edge in the long run and their good vertical mobility is why they can do this effectively. And TBH, anyone putting their big AROs in LoF against SWF is asking to get those guys dead. I don't see Kahru and ORCs FB loosing FtF often enough so that my opponents start to disrespect their firepower. And you were asking for lists, so here are some I know I can make them work (played and won with them against players with a good level) : The Grid ────────────────────────────────────────────────── GROUP 1 10 NØKK (Minelayer) Combi Rifle, Light Shotgun, Shock Mines / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 27) NØKK (Minelayer) Combi Rifle, Light Shotgun, Shock Mines / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 27) VARG (Minelayer) K1 Marksman Rifle, Shock Mines / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 30) VARG (Forward Observer) Heavy Rocket Launcher, Light Shotgun, Flash Pulse / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 25) VARG (Triangulated Fire, Sensor) Combi Rifle, Heavy Flamethrower, WildParrot / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 28) FUSILIER (Lieutenant) Combi Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 10) FUSILIER Combi Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 10) ORC Feuerbach / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 38) QUINN Shock Marksman Rifle, Flash Pulse / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 23) FUSILIER (Paramedic) Combi Rifle ( | MediKit) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 12) GROUP 2 4 1 NØKK (Forward Observer) Boarding Shotgun, Panzerfaust, Flash Pulse / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 25) PEACEMAKER Heavy Shotgun / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 20) AUXBOT_3 Heavy Flamethrower / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 4) WARCOR (360º Visor) Flash Pulse ( ) / Stun Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 3) FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 7) MACHINIST Combi Rifle, D-Charges ( | GizmoKit) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 15) 4.5 SWC | 300 Points Open in Infinity Army Vargar 2.0 ────────────────────────────────────────────────── GROUP 1 10 VARG (Minelayer) K1 Marksman Rifle, Shock Mines / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 30) VARG (Forward Observer) Heavy Rocket Launcher, Light Shotgun, Flash Pulse / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 25) VARG (Triangulated Fire, Sensor) Combi Rifle, Heavy Flamethrower, WildParrot / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 28) FUSILIER (Lieutenant) Combi Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 10) FUSILIER Combi Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 10) FUSILIER (Paramedic) Combi Rifle ( | MediKit) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 12) ORC Feuerbach / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 38) KARHU Feuerbach(+1B), AP Mines / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 35) FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 7) FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 7) GROUP 2 4 1 PALBOT PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 3) TRAUMA-DOC Combi Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 14) BULLETEER Spitfire / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (1 | 23) BEASTHUNTER FTO (Minelayer) Heavy Flamethrower, Panzerfaust, AP Mines / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 9) KARHU (Engineer, Deactivator) MULTI Rifle, Blitzen, D-Charges ( | GizmoKit) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 29) PEACEMAKER Heavy Shotgun / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 20) AUXBOT_3 Heavy Flamethrower / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 4) 6 SWC | 300 Points Open in Infinity Army But remember : they aren't meant to fight against big ARO pieces in their good range band (just like Black Friar, in fact). But they are good at punish mistakes. And if you can't use them during Turn 1, it's OK. They are still good in turns 2 and 3.
The thing I hate the most about this is it's starting to make me want more VARG, and my painting queue is already overflowing...
