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How competitive are MO?

Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by Context, Aug 14, 2019.

  1. andre61

    andre61 Well-Known Member

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    I know, but I don't have a lot of MO figures, I just put in an order for a box of Magister Knights and I just got my hands on more OS/w combi rifles, plus twoTeutonic Knights. I'm hopping this will build up my lists.
     
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  2. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower
    Warcor

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    I don't think that's necessarily always true.

    This, for example, seems like a playable list:

    Military Orders
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────
    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]10
    TIKBALANG OF MONTESA (Religious Troop) AP HMG, Heavy Flamethrower / DA CCW. (2 | 92)
    [​IMG] CRABBOT Flash Pulse / Knife. ()
    FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    MULEBOT (Minesweeper, Repeater) Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    MULEBOT (Minesweeper, Repeater) Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    PATHFINDER DRONBOT Combi Rifle, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 16)
    KNIGHT OF SANTIAGO Lieutenant (Specialist Operative) Spitfire, Nanopulser, E/M Grenades, D-Charges / Pistol, DA CCW. (1 | 43)
    ORDER SERGEANT Spitfire / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 19)
    ORDER SERGEANT Heavy Rocket Launcher / Assault Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 15)
    ORDER SERGEANT Paramedic (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15)
    ORDER SERGEANT Paramedic (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15)
    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]3 [​IMG]1
    SPEC. SERGEANT Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 21)
    MACHINIST (Father-Engineer) Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15)
    PALBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
    TRAUMA-DOC (Father-Doctor) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14)
    PALBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
    TECH-BEE (Remote Assistant Level 1, Specialist Operative) Flash Pulse / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    6 SWC | 300 Points
    Open in Infinity Army
     
  3. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Shock Army of Acontecimento
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]10
    TIKBALANG HMG, Heavy Flamethrower, Antipersonnel Mines / AP CCW. (2 | 85)
    [​IMG] CRABBOT Flash Pulse / Knife. ()
    FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    PATHFINDER DRONBOT Combi Rifle, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 16)
    REGULAR (Sapper) MULTI Sniper Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 22)
    REGULAR Spitfire / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 16)
    REGULAR Paramedic (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12)
    REGULAR (Minelayer, Sensor) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 14)
    ORC Lieutenant MULTI Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 40)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]4 [​IMG]1
    REGULAR Hacker (Hacking Device, FastPanda) Combi Rifle + Light Grenade Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 23)
    TRAUMA-DOC Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14)
    PALBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
    MACHINIST Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15)
    PALBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
    TECH-BEE (Remote Assistant Level 1, Specialist Operative) Flash Pulse / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    MULEBOT (Minesweeper, Repeater) Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)

    6 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    So you want to play ASA but without ASA strengths ?
     
  4. vicen85

    vicen85 Well-Known Member

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    Probably the reason of this is not MO bettee or not as Varuna, the reason is meta of actual ITS missions.
    The recent ITS need a lot of mobility, a large reserve of orders, in this ITS 2 infiltrators specialists of 25 pts are better than a HI specialist of 50 pts, because they cover more ground, they are already in half table and provide twice as many orders.

    MO is powerfull, but on his job: killing, ARO and control determinate zone.

    If the ITS requires you to have to go around half or more of the table with your HI links, then MO loses a lot of effectiveness, and also due to the obvious lieutenant you risk LoL.

    @daboarder can you show us your MO list?
     
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  5. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    You should always have some ARO presence in your lists, that's basic list building. Any list that doesn't have ARO units will find their opponent in their DZ on turn.
     
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  6. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

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    With regards to the "MO is shit" vs the "they don't fit your style" argument, my personal take is that the results seem to indicate that MO "doesn't fit the style" of many players competitively, which I would see to be a problem.

    Even if they are perfectly viable (I don't agree, I'm in the "MO sux" camp though trying to make them work) I think its a reasonable request that they be modified so that similar proportions of players are finding them viable. Thats a good business play too - leads to more people picking up armies and models they otherwise wouldn't.
     
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  7. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    I don't think anyone is claiming MO is perfect. There are certainly things that could and should be changed, like Teutons.
     
  8. theradrussian

    theradrussian Well-Known Member

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    Hot take: MO getting bum-rushed had me think it'd be nice to see some knights or other units in the sectorial get an ability to start in Suppressive fire at the beginning of the game, or maybe the ability to do so for free at the end of an order (while still generating an ARO).

    Since tactical sense is a sin for MO because reasons I am not Spanish enough to understand, maybe that'd help retain a unique identity.

    Also, MO doesn't necessarily imply a single combat group, but then you've also got the enemy removing 2 orders in your first turn most likely. No counterintelligence here...
     
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  9. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower
    Warcor

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    Funnily enough, given I've been playing SAA all season, I know how to build a solid SAA list.

    But that's not the point.

    The argument was made that you couldn't build a decent two-group list with a Tik in MO.

    You can.

    The similarity of your list from SAA only proves my point.
     
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  10. CaptainVenge

    CaptainVenge Frog with Light Rocket Launcher

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    The question is what do you assume by "decent"? Having all of the attacking potential in a single group and second group consisting of only support units with 3 or 4 orders? Well, that's not "decent" from the stand of order efficiency and economy.
     
  11. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    It's decent.

    But far from good. If you check the "top" factions their main strength is that 2nd group can not only support 1st one but also perform attacks/objective grabs on their own. Or easily switch roles with the 1st one (1st one making a breach/killing, second scoring, vice versa or both doing a little bit of each)
     
  12. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

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    Perfectly viable and perfect are different!

    My post is a response to people like Daboarder saying that its about playstyle rather than army strength. It's a legitimate argument (though I disagree) but I believe that if there are 100 people who find 'turtle with a Kamau' a good playstyle and 2 people that find 'charge with knights' a good playstyle, something needs to change to make the knights more appealing. Thats totally independent of how strong or not strong MO are.

    My personal take is that they're shit because orders are king, visual mods are king, and marker states are king, and MO is like the holy trinity of "not getting any of that shit", so naturally they suck bad.
     
  13. Janzerker

    Janzerker Invincible Angry

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    Marker states
    - Total AVA Order Sergeants with Infiltration and TO
    - Holoproyector lvl 2 Selpuchre Knights
    - Dart

    Visual Mods
    - Order Sergeant with Spitfire and MSV2
    - Konstantinos, infiltrator with MSV2 and mimetism
    - Black Friars with MSV2 and choice of Multi rifle (linkable) or Multi Sniper
    - ODD Bulleters
    - Mimetic Montesa
    - Mimetic Tikbalang

    Order generation
    - NCO Teuton
    - Joan giving a coordinated order for free each turn (here you have the equivalent of 4 orders extra each turn)
    - Joan's inspiring leadership granting regular orders to her friends Warcor and Tech Bee. That's 2 regular orders for 8 points

    Says MO doesn't have any of that.

    MO has the tools, it's just your problem if you keep on building lists that don't make use of them because you think only in fitting fireteams of hand adjusted discounted Knights. It's just natural that any list in this game trying to fit 5+ HIs will end up with a single combat group (exceptions being Riot Grrls because of Nomads kek).
     
    #133 Janzerker, Aug 23, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2019
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  14. Werekill

    Werekill Well-Known Member

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    I don't think they're shit or suck bad by any means, just an 8.5-9/10 when the top armies are 9.75/10 (since no army is perfect). The gaps in effectiveness are still decently close.

    But yeah, I'd love for the game to buff 10 order lists in the next edition. As is, you're at a large disadvantage unless you do tricksy stuff involving lieutenant orders and additional impetuous/irregular orders. I'm just not sure what they should change.
     
  15. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

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    You need to be less literal on the internet. Like no shit there is are marker state in MO - shock, horror! But look at how my sentence is phrased and tell me thats a literal statement of "these things do not exist".

    Yes, MO has access to markers etc, but access =/= being good, otherwise almost every army would be king because almost every army has a marker in it somewhere. If I have to explain that my argument isn't that MO gets none instead of MO is not strong in this area then I just don't know what to say.

    To be good, we need strong profiles, and also importantly, profiles with an edge over what can be taken in vanilla PanO.
    • Holo2 Sepulcher is shite, and has no edge in MO vs PanOceania vanilla.
    • Dart is Dart and TOFOSGT is a thing sure, but a strong marker state army is running mass camo, mines, heavies with camo etc, not just a well costed skirmisher and Dart. MO can 'spam" vanilla TO skirmishers more than vanilla but without some other TO profiles I don't consider their existence alone an area of strength over vanilla unless you are wanting to run "all the TO!" and take more than what vanilla can field.
    • Order Sgt MSV Spitfire is shit and has no advantage over vanilla.
    • I never see Konstantinos on the board. He might have game, but he isn't for me nor anyone else I've played with. Importantly, no edge over vanilla.
    • Black Friar is a mediocre MSV for giving access to MO, much like the old Zerat merely gave infiltration access to Morats. The Albedo one has some game because it can link, but a linkable MSV Multi Rifle is not an area of strength in the way linking an MSV heavy weapon would be - I don't think you should play MO to have a first alpha strike with a Black Friar and Order Sergeants lol
    • Bulleteer, Montessa, and Tikbalang are all vanilla accessible and do the same or better in vanilla. You should not play Military Orders in order to run vanilla PanOceanian tech at the same or worse level as the vanilla.
    • NCO Teuton is an area of strength, it is something I have posted about in the MO Tactica as my go to strategy for MO at the moment.
    • Joan's strength in MO is linkability with Hospitallers. That doesn't work for me but maybe it does for others. Outside of that she is better in vanilla where she also creates cheap orders.
    Suck bad is probably an overstatement. I like them and I've won with them, but when I compare them to what else is in the game they just feel terrible. Particularly I feel that every army needs legitimate game against mass camo to be viable, and I'm not seeing that here in MO
     
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  16. Ayadan

    Ayadan Knight of the TAG Order

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    Well, I think we'll have difficulties to find a ground on which we agree.
    • OS HRL is just a little wonder. For the same price of a Fusilier ML, you have a HRL instead of a ML (less deadly against heavy units but who does field heavy units in your meta?) and an Assault Pistol and he can be part of pretty any FT this sectorial has outside of Duo.
    • AVA total on Auxbot troopers. Yes, NCA have it cheaper but it's still nice to have some with a better shooter than the Auxilia.
    • Albedo Black Friar IS a killer. But he is not a long range ARO killer. His stuff is designed to go unnoticed through MSV snipers and ML and go kill the cheerleaders they are protecting with their Drop Bears. And if the situation calls/allows it, he can be part of an OS core so he can help to defend against Impersonators and give him additionnal odds to survive the first turn. He is also an excellent troop to stop those 5 points WB to come close to your OS, provided you know how to deploy him.
    • Konstantinos is really insteresting here. For Highly classified, he is a Veteran troop with a MSV and D-Charges. He is the only MSV2 your Hospitallers and Teutons can have in their link too and I can assure you that fighting SP without a MSV2 is really tiring.
    • Montesa has a specialist profile
    • FK ML is one of the most brutal and durable ARO piece in this game. Yes, you can win FtF against him but he will hardly die. Bringing him back and asking to your opponent to repeat the prowess a second time may be too hard for him. Even alone, once you have cleared some of your opponent's prime attack pieces, he will be hard to take down, not even talking about killing him.
    • Having Haris with units not getting sent unconscious on the first TO infiltrator unloading his BSG on them. Yes, ORCs can do it too but how many field them?
    • AVA3 Santiagos
    There are a lot of things you can do in MO that you can't in Vanilla or in any other sectorial.
    For example, you can't play as aggressively with Varuna than you can with MO. If there is a Sectorial in PanO that can punish a deployment mistake the hard way, it's MO because their assault troopers can do that and are cheaper than those able to do this in our other sectorials.
    I've already felt it with ASA or NCA: you don't have the means to breach your opponent's lines with our secular units while MO troops can do it reliably if you do it good. With VIRD, ASA or NCA, you just take down what you can without risking that much and choke little by little your opponent until he dies in your hands. MO proposes something less pernicious and more direct. It requires a lot of finesse to do it though and this is where I think most of the players fail.
    I say this because for now, I've faced two MO players I know have a quite good level. Both of them did mistakes which should have never been done in MO and let me get the upper hand. The first one was a mirror game and the second one, I was playing a LI NCA list (lots of Bolts, all NCA wildcards and ORC Haris) so it wasn't even order economy. It was just guys not knowing exactly how to use their units outside of the basics everyone can do.
    But really, this MO box is doing a lot of bad things to beginners. I wish CB would have released an ASA one instead of this mess.
     
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  17. Werekill

    Werekill Well-Known Member

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    Wait so the box is bad? I was half considering picking it up.
     
  18. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener O-12 Peace Kepper

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    Nah its alright – you'll end up using 3/4 of the hospitallers, probably all of the OS in some aspect, and who doesn't love Joan, Black friar is good, the only thing that kind of bites imo is the Crusader Brethren
     
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  19. herod1204

    herod1204 Knight of Santiago

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    The box has some pretty critical models in it for any mo list, but you wouldn't want to run the box itself as your mo list, if that makes sense?

    All the units in it (except maybe the crusader,) you will use in lists though

    Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk
     
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  20. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

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    I agree. You've listed a number of things that you feel are powerful. I personally am not feeling most of them. Better to leave it at that. Theres not really much point in arguing the back and forth on whether MO has specific nice things or not, because my argument isn't that they have nothing, its that they don't have enough. Some people think that stuff is enough, some don't. If more people thought that these things were great reasons to run MO, there would be more people playing them, and less people bitching ITT instead lol.
     
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