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How competitive are MO?

Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by Context, Aug 14, 2019.

  1. Teslarod

    Teslarod Trebuchet Enthusiast

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    Look mate... if you throw enough tries at a problem chances are you will succeed at some point.
    Player Skills matter, performance matters, luck matters and so does a list.
    You can win with LI lists no problem. But you are a less likely to do well with them compared to ALL lists in the pool - that doesn't take any level of skill into account.

    Poorly designed lists, dice, player performance etc should impact both LI and non LI lists equally - yet LI performs worse in regards of average TP and average OP.
    Which as a result heavily indicates LI format as major part of the cause.
     
    CaptainVenge likes this.
  2. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    I think you're confusing more difficult to play with less competitive, they're not the same thing.

    Side note, I tend to disregard statistics sourced from data that people refuse to share. It's impossible for me to actually check and understand their work, and if I can't do that then I can't agree with it on principle.
     
    #102 Triumph, Aug 22, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2019
    Ayadan likes this.
  3. Teslarod

    Teslarod Trebuchet Enthusiast

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    The public stuff is still available in the thread it was linked to.

    "More difficult to play" isn't interchangeable with "simply worse".
    To do well with something difficult to play ceases to matter at the top.
    Hard to play means someone skilled gets very competetive mileage out of it. If the better players perform worse than their brethren in the same percentile it's not hard to play - it's bad.
     
  4. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Partial access is pretty much the same thing. If I can't look at all the data I can't guarantee things aren't being cherry picked or misrepresented either accidentally or intentionally. This matters for stuff like trying to calculate average TPs, some missions are way, way, easier to score in than others.


    Doing well with things does not cease to matter at the top. If limited insertion lists are placing and making finals they are clearly for some factions a competitive option. The only way you can discount that is to argue every player that wins with these is winning through sheer luck, which I give you is possible but really not probable.
     
    #104 Triumph, Aug 22, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2019
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  5. andre61

    andre61 Well-Known Member

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    Wow! I didn't think this would go this far, Six pages
     
  6. CaptainVenge

    CaptainVenge Frog with Light Rocket Launcher

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    Well, everyone likes space knights but not everyone likes to lose with them (and deep down in our soul we all hope that someday MO will become strong af in competitive way).
    In our local community everyone is mocking me after i switched armies (from MO to Varuna) and started winning more frequently - the most frequent joke is - "Wow, so after all the problem wasn't with you and your skill, huh?"
     
  7. Teslarod

    Teslarod Trebuchet Enthusiast

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    Didn't see the other threads? :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

    Haven't seen this amount of whiteknighting for a lost cause since the anti Uprising crowd.
     
    theradrussian likes this.
  8. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
    Warcor

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    An alternative is that vird fits your style in ways MO doesnt.

    Infinity is not a game where you can netlist either faction or games. What works for one player may not work for another and some armies will just click with specific players (for me it was caledonia).

    None of this makes your initial choice weak, nor does it mean it was you in a bad way. It just means it was not right for you. You can at thag point accept that and move on as you have, or you can keep at it, try new things, discuss options with players that have been successful with the tools that you arent getting to work and then learn to apply them. Both are valid choices, but neither makes the initial choice weak.

    For my money i love MO, theyve worked well for me and play into the style of gameplay that first clicked for me in PanOceania. The new changes have givem all knights a niche they fulfill which no other order does, which was always the primary issie with the old MO. That cant be denied or belittled as "whiteknighting"
     
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  9. CaptainVenge

    CaptainVenge Frog with Light Rocket Launcher

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    Are there really that many usefull options in MO woth trying?)
    Like Montesa? :grinning: Or duo FK? :joy:
    But i get your point, jokes aside maybe you are right and MO just didn't "click" with me.
     
  10. Teslarod

    Teslarod Trebuchet Enthusiast

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    FTFY: The new changes have given all knights at least one niche profile that might or might not be kinda valid... sometimes... maybe?... so it almost makes you forget how uninspired or badly suited their other Profiles or baseline theme are to fit into the army next to the sleek effectiveness of Joan, Magisters, Santiagos and Hospitalers.

    Defending the Fatherknight never gets old.
    And neither does cracking up over it.
     
  11. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    Yes there are.
    The meat and potatoes of the list is the santiagos, father knights, magisters, order sergeants and hospitallers.

    Because they form the core you build around.
    But the flavour and utility comes from units like tuetons, sepulchre knights, montessa knights, spec sergeants, seraphs and tikbalangs and the way they build into whatever core you have chosen to build off of.

    Then you have the standard pano support suite in the access to our great rems to push that further.

    Your job as a player is to decide which strengths you want to lean into and which you want to forgoe. The first part of that choice is choosing mo. Leaning into their resiliance. You then fullow that up with your core and finally your niche and support.

    All armies have to do this
     
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  12. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Occam's razor says it's simply the power level. Tournament results imply that Varuna is much more powerful than MO.
     
  13. andre61

    andre61 Well-Known Member

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    I know for me, I find MO very hard to play in my infinity group, In my group 10 order lists will get destroyed every time, and if you play them without some type of ARO units. They will be in your DZ in no time at all. I know I'm missing something in my lists when I play MO or at least that's how I feel.
     
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  14. CaptainVenge

    CaptainVenge Frog with Light Rocket Launcher

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    I have a feeling that @daboarder just knows something that we don't and that he had transcedented on the level where MO in one group destroys higher tier armies =)
    Btw i would love to see your list Daboarder, if you don't mind of course.
     
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  15. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    I know a number of players i rate highly that have a similar impression of MO. Both in Australia and abroad. In part im passing on concepts brought up by others in those conversations
     
  16. Werekill

    Werekill Well-Known Member

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    I always wonder how much of this is mission selection, along with terrain variation. Some tables get set up with way too many angles to blitz turn 1 and take out tons of orders.

    Blitzing is a major part of the game and a fun part at that, but some terrain choices make it way too easy against LI.

    Preach! Netlisting helps in terms of inspiration and learning synergies, but you have to put in the time to learn the list and units before you can even hope to succeed.

    Also I'd love to try MO. My infinity time is just too limited to spread across Sectorials though, until I get a local scene going. I'm only able to do games once a month or so, after driving to my previous hometown. Once I get things started here (which is already looking likely, it's a decent sized city), I'll give MO a shot!
     
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  17. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    Doesnt have to be 10 orders to be effective in MO
     
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  18. Werekill

    Werekill Well-Known Member

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    What are your tables looking like? I had similar problems even with lists with more orders, but adding scatter and more hiding spots helped immensely.

    (on that note, thanks Daboarder for the help in the table thread! It led to much improved games.)
     
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  19. CaptainVenge

    CaptainVenge Frog with Light Rocket Launcher

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    But in the end there are not that many options in the new MO to fit into the concept of two fully operational groups that can be effective.
    Here is a best i came up with before dumping MO:
    OS core (2 sant) + teuton haris
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1 8
    KNIGHT OF SANTIAGO Lieutenant (Specialist Operative) Spitfire, Nanopulser, E/M Grenades, D-Charges / Pistol, DA CCW. (1 | 43)
    KNIGHT OF SANTIAGO Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Nanopulser, D-Charges + 1 TinBot A (Deflector L1) / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 38)
    ORDER SERGEANT Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13)
    ORDER SERGEANT Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13)
    ORDER SERGEANT Heavy Rocket Launcher / Assault Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 15)
    FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    MULEBOT (Minesweeper, Repeater) Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    MULEBOT (Minesweeper, Repeater) Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)

    GROUP 26 / 2
    TEUTONIC KNIGHT (NCO) Spitfire / Pistol, AP CCW. (2 | 39)
    TEUTONIC KNIGHT (Fireteam: Haris, Specialist Operative) Combi Rifle, Panzerfaust / Pistol, AP CCW. (0.5 | 36)
    ORDER SERGEANT Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13)
    TRAUMA-DOC (Father-Doctor) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14)
    PALBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
    MACHINIST (Father-Engineer) Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15)
    PALBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
    WARCOR (Sixth Sense L1) Flash Pulse / Stun Pistol, Knife. (0 | 3)
    BULLETEER Spitfire / Electric Pulse. (1 | 23)
    TECH-BEE (Remote Assistant Level 1, Specialist Operative) Flash Pulse / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)

    6 SWC | 300 Points

    Teuton core + Hosp haris
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1 8 / 2
    KNIGHT OF SANTIAGO Lieutenant (Specialist Operative) Spitfire, Nanopulser, E/M Grenades, D-Charges / Pistol, DA CCW. (1 | 43)
    KNIGHT OF SANTIAGO Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Nanopulser, D-Charges + 1 TinBot A (Deflector L1) / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 38)
    MAGISTER KNIGHT Panzerfaust, Light Shotgun / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 22)
    MAGISTER KNIGHT Panzerfaust, Light Shotgun / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 22)
    ORDER SERGEANT Heavy Rocket Launcher / Assault Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 15)
    MULEBOT (Minesweeper, Repeater) Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    MULEBOT (Minesweeper, Repeater) Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)

    GROUP 26 / 1
    KNIGHT HOSPITALLER Doctor (Fireteam: Haris, MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, DA CCW. (0.5 | 36)
    KNIGHT HOSPITALLER HMG / Pistol, DA CCW. (2 | 39)
    ORDER SERGEANT Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13)
    MACHINIST (Father-Engineer) Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15)
    PALBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
    WARCOR (Sixth Sense L1) Flash Pulse / Stun Pistol, Knife. (0 | 3)
    ORDER SERGEANT Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13)
    ORDER SERGEANT Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13)

    5 SWC | 299 Points

    After the tests second list proved itself so much better then the frist one.
     
  20. Teslarod

    Teslarod Trebuchet Enthusiast

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    Part of defending against a Blitz is just the expendable chaff that soaks Orders on top of the hard AROs. Warcors, Flashpulse Bots, Helots, Warbands, Minelayers, Koalas...
    Mechanically speaking most of these also inhibit board control by means of Marker State and Smoke coulds.
    MO being very lightweight in those department leads to the opposition being able to bring their weight to bear exaclty where and against exactly what they want.


    Yup, that we agree on. MO and 10 Order lists are two completely different discussions.