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How competitive are MO?

Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by Context, Aug 14, 2019.

  1. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    It's hard to kill as long as your link is in DZ.

    If you leave your DZ with your link (90% of time you want to do that, as those are most of your points) then your LT is in real danger.
     
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  2. vicen85

    vicen85 Well-Known Member

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    Partially not agree.

    As companions said, if you use Spec-ops, there's no problem making the list you want. If you give Chain of Command to your Spec-op you can play all the 3 Turns save, don't care about life of your powerfull Lt.

    On some facctions play Spec-ops is like play another facctions, you erase some weakness of your Army. I don't like Spec-op ,:joy: I promise.
     
    #62 vicen85, Aug 20, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2019
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  3. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Part of the problem is that some factions are allowed to make the intelligent choice and keep their lieutenant in the back keeping their head down giving orders, and other factions are expected to put their lieutenant in harm's way.
     
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  4. Werekill

    Werekill Well-Known Member

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    I honestly wonder sometimes if the Lieutenant mechanic is too punishing.
     
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  5. Titus

    Titus Varuna Beach Commando

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    Oh, come on... That can't be a real solution, right? XD

    I don't know about you, guys. But where I play we only use Spec Ops if there is a tournament with that specific rule... and that's very rarely the case. If we rely on Spec Ops for every faction / sectorial, then yeah, we can solve a lot of weaknesses I guess.
     
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  6. Teslarod

    Teslarod Trebuchet Enthusiast

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    So the IP results definitely match the overall ITS stats in a lot of areas.
    They most certainly have a couple freak accidents we can all agree on - looking at Druze here - that player must have done a really good job, probably hit the Faction ceiling there and could have gunned for a podium place with a less punishing Faction choice. In the end 9 TP isn't even close to winning but sure looks good considering it only has to compete with averages on overall results.

    Can't really say that the top 10 have any surprises.

    Not sure what you'd need to quote me for on that.
    Pretty sure I've been ranting about Lt strategic variance being detrimental to the game for years at this point. Especially after Vanilla Aleph got the Shukra CoC Profile for some inexplicable reason.
     
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  7. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

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    I think you've misread my post, because I didn't say "don't take them in MO" I said "don't make them the reason you play MO".
     
  8. theradrussian

    theradrussian Well-Known Member

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    provide objective facts?

    I mean, they're fun and I welcome the challenge, but I won't be taking them when my aim is to do my best
     
  9. CaptainVenge

    CaptainVenge Frog with Light Rocket Launcher

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    Playing MO competitively is like playing Infinity on the hard difficulty, very punishing but so satisfying when you can grab that sweet major victory from Tier-1 army.
     
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  10. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    People are making fun of me due to coming back to MO after OSS ;P
     
  11. CaptainVenge

    CaptainVenge Frog with Light Rocket Launcher

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    Well, good luck to you good sir, i'm taking my knights from the shelf only on LI tournaments)
     
  12. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    I need to start losing again ;) We will see how long I will be able to last :D
     
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  13. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    MO is a good sectorial.

    their strengths lie in area control and domination of Zones and specific hard points on the table.
    As with any sectorial, in a tournament setting the missions should inform your choice of lists. a VIRD list is not going to play into the strengths of holding ground, particularly ground in the opponents half od the table, nearly so well as MO.

    This does not make VIRD weak, anymore than similar limitations with regards to other missions makes MO weak. Choose the best tool for the job, and counter to the opinion here, there are a myriad of considerations that make MO a serious choice and the home of PanOs best tools for the job.
    For an easy example, any mission which requires a Data Tracker to hold a hard point (acquisition) or a zone (supremacy) will automatically lean towards MO for its access to our best data tracker options in the form of Joan and linked high BS knights, which are also relatively difficult to kill in CC relative to any other serious data dracker option such as a TAG or non-knight HI.

    As to Lt options, it is at worst a double edge sword, while an expensive Lt is a downside, you are not, nor should you, be running such a Lt in the same manner as a fusilier. The santiago Lt and Joan are phenomenal, in particular in the case of the Santiago, it is not just an Lt, it is an SWC discounted gun (1 SWC spitfire) that is also able to push buttons (adding order efficiency and multi-roll capability to its profile) and due to its 360 visor cannot be readily outmaneuvered and dominates a larger area of the board, which plays into your lower numbers. While exposing such a Lt in the early game should be shied away (obviously), late game this piece can truly dominate and fill any role you require in the game (thanks DA CCW) acting as redundancy for the rest of your list. given its relatively low SWC cost (1 SWC for a Lt is not uncommon, and usually that does not include a B4 gun and specialist status) using it conservatively in the early game is hardly a waste of resources.

    EDIT: As to a comment on the turnout of MO. Instead of overreaching the evidence of limited MO players in the event Id argue that the phenomenon is instead a comment on the way MO plays into the listed missions. Missions that require flexibility, specialists (and skirmishers in particular) with little focus on survival or area control. if the mission line up had been, Armoury, Engineering deck, Aquisition, Frontline, Frostbyte then its highly likely we would have seen considerably more turnout of MO and other similar factions
     
    #73 daboarder, Aug 21, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2019
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  14. vicen85

    vicen85 Well-Known Member

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    I very agree with all you say. But un addition I think loose an Liutenant is very dangerous on almost all factions of Infinity, and the obligation of Obvious Lt IS a problem.

    One half-solution maybe is add the Lt option to all weapons options of all Knigths profile. With this change when your enemy see all your Knigths on table at least he can't Know with is exactly your Lt.
     
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  15. Teslarod

    Teslarod Trebuchet Enthusiast

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    Completely disagree.
    Infinity is a game where everything is expected to die. Your list needs to be capable of continued function if that HI Link dies off.
    Pretty much any army looks diminshed after losing their entire Core Link, but I've yet to see an MO list that still has a proper backup plan after losing its link.
    Apart from Dart you lack a flexible backup (and taking Dart is mutually exclusve with bringing a TO Specialist).There are no efficient and self sufficient troops like Nisse, Krakots, Auxilia, CSUs, Regular Minelayer, ZC, EB or their inter faction competition in MO.
    Everything in MO that isn't a Marker or Hackable is quite terrible, overpriced and inflexible.

    Your best choices are (Dart,) Crusaders, Black Friars and Spec Sergeants. All of them pretty expensive and limited in complimenting the rest of the army.
    Even PanO staples like the Bulleteer or Sierra are hamstrung in MO through lack support and the Orders of a second group to fuel and repair them.
     
    #75 Teslarod, Aug 21, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2019
  16. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Wait a sec, isn't new MO much more flexible than the old one ?
    Aren't TOFOOS actually a great SK (due to their agressive pricing) specialists and SK units ?
    Didn't MO receive some broad new selection of specialists ? (all Santiagos are specialists, FK specialist can link, Teuton Specialist+Haris, Montesa fast specialist)




    Problem is that MO got a hard kick when it comes to order size. The issue only made worse with a removal of cheap (cheapest in game?) LT option.
     
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  17. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    And how many Sptifire Santiagos are you going to field ?
    2 at max ? (if ever)

    It takes seasoned player only a few moments to actually identify your (usually only) option of LT in list.
     
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  18. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    sure its a limitation, the trick is to make that limitation a strength where you can (as I said late game the damned santiago can be a game winning piece on its own, generating 2 orders, being able to fight its way through almost all threats and kill a key unit or push a critical button, means it only needs a handful of your force left to support it to still be able to rip a win out of the opponents grasp)

    Additionally, the risk of LoL is so much less significant for him, Joan and the FK than it is for say a fusilier. people tend to think "Gee a single Lt Fusilier isnt hard to kill, guess the 30+ pt lt isnt hard to kill either" Then they forget that the Knight probably has a solution to every attack vector, particularly the Santiago who is a wildcard, and therefore likely linked to a defensive link, packs a 360 visor, has a +3 capable weapon from 0-24 (dont forget the pistol) and can also elect to trade its first wound (or a hit really) for a DTW shot at whatever is attacking it.
    They are not simple things to kill, with minimal investment on the owning players part (you should probably be running a defensive link anyway).

    Even if they do know who the Lt is, and they probably do, that doesnt make killing it achievable in and of itself. if it did games could be won on knowing the opponents army list alone, and they really cant be.
     
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  19. vicen85

    vicen85 Well-Known Member

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    Imagine a List compose of:
    - Haris 3 Hospitaller (Haris, F.Combi and HMG)
    - 1 Father-Knigth
    - 1 Santiago KHD

    If all of then can be the Lt your enemy can think that Hospitaller F.Combi is Lt, but probably you choose other, maybe Haris one, maybe Santiago.

    Rest the factor "obvious" and MO lose this part of his LoL pain.
     
  20. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    So you want to invest like 90 pts in pure purpose of making some basic LT shell game ? (not to mention reason of bringing naked combi Hospitaller)

    Also Santiago KHD cannot be LT and FK combi LT is just great waste of points (funny enough he is more expensive pts wise than a Santiago Spitfire LT).