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How competitive are MO?

Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by Context, Aug 14, 2019.

  1. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    For real now? everyone is free to discuss and you can debate on the merits of the ideas not attacking each other...
     
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  2. Tanan

    Tanan Active Member

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    I'm in a process of buying my 2nd faction after Ariadna. I like to win on creativity not on math. If learning curve isn't steep I'm not interested.

    Is MO hard sectoral to master?
     
  3. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    I would be of opinion that it has quite high skill floor (as most factions in infinity with limited tools require quite a lot of creative thinking to solve problems with limited toolset) and relatively low skill cap .
     
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  4. Tanan

    Tanan Active Member

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    Really? From Ariadna point of view it has lot of different options:
    - Repeaters, Sniffers, a lot of REMs and 4 kinds of hackers. Pitcher and deployable repeater are missing.
    - Very good stealth options. Total AVA TO camo trooper that costs 27p. AD: Parachutist is missing.
    - All specialists available. Unlike in Ariadna, everyone has a cube so doctors can succeed at their job.
    - A lot of different HI infantry options.
    - A lot of special tools available like Albedo, Inspiring leadership, E/M grenades, sat-lock, climbing plus, superjump, mechanized deployment and drop bears.
    - 2 TAGs.
     
  5. Marduck

    Marduck Well-Known Member

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    Very hard, I would say harder now that you don't have that one obvious link (hosp + magister). I requires you to assess what FT to form and reform and undo in the middle of the battle.

    But very fun and satisfying on the other hand, like the Japanese probably. Depend how much committed to mastering the faction you want to be.

    For example, consider how many different FT option you have here (one to resist warband assault when going second, one to go after the annoying kamau sniper, one to rush the ennemy DZ etc ... and that could be refined more) :

    Military Orders──────────────────────────────────────────────────[​IMG]10 FATHER-KNIGHT Missile Launcher / Breaker Pistol, DA CCW. (1.5 | 49) ORDER SERGEANT Paramedic (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15) KNIGHT HOSPITALLER HMG / Pistol, DA CCW. (2 | 39) KNIGHT HOSPITALLER Doctor (Fireteam: Haris, MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, DA CCW. (0.5 | 36) KNIGHT OF SANTIAGO Lieutenant (Specialist Operative) Spitfire, Nanopulser, E/M Grenades, D-Charges / Pistol, DA CCW. (1 | 43) KNIGHT OF SANTIAGO Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Nanopulser, D-Charges + 1 TinBot A (Deflector L1) / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 38) BLACK FRIAR (Albedo, Biometric Visor L1) MULTI Rifle, Nanopulser, Drop Bears / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 28) MACHINIST (Father-Engineer) Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15) FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) SIERRA DRONBOT HMG / Electric Pulse. (1 | 25) PALBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3) 6 SWC | 299 PointsOpen in Infinity Army
     
    #285 Marduck, Nov 13, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2019
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  6. Ayadan

    Ayadan Knight of the TAG Order

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    Yes, but also hard to get in hand. On the contrary to a lot of armies, even your spammiest list won't get the same power other lists can have access too. So, all the trick is to put versatility in your list and to always strike where your opponent is the weakest. Your knights have good stats everywhere, so what you really need is to not challenge where your opponent is strong. You're facing IA? Go fight at short range and CC whenever you can or use your E/M Grenades to shut them down. You're facing JSA? Just outshoot them. Changing stance from aggressive to defensive and reciprocally, changing your FT during the game : all those are not something that easy to do. And always find the most efficient way to achieve your objectives is another challenge.
    I think it'll be easier for you to learn how to play them than for an ASA/NCA/VIRD player as you have to learn everything while the later will try to put squares in circles.
    I'm learning to play VIRD at the moment and this is really frustrating. While I could have got the game in my bag turn 2 with MO, I need to cautiously move any trooper to not just screw things up badly. Really different.
     
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  7. Teslarod

    Teslarod The Squeeze has not been Sqouze

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    Well Knights aren't exactly rocketscience. Mostly big blocks of stats, most of their finesse comes in as situational advantage, like Stealth, CC, Impetuous which has to compensate their increased cost for multitasking in between BS and CC.
    Skills, gear and internal synergy usually are what adds complexity to a Sectorial. Varuna would be a good example for that.

    MO has its upsides but simply lacks in the game's simple focus points. They don't do Orders, board control or plain shooting Active/Reactive well (a set of problems shared with i.e. Morats).
    Without the expendable bodies, Mines, Perimeter weapons, Camo Tokens or Order efficiency to put them ahead of things, you end up relying on efficient Profiles alone.
    These are mostly Frenzy/Impetuous Knights like Joan, Magisters and Santiagos. The supporting cast is lackluster compared to even PanO internal competition and the Knights can frequently run into trouble. TAG choices are excellent, but again badly supported. OS Links are expensive and offer nothing noteworthy except the HRL Profile. And then there is the problem that you have to run a HI as Lt and CoC costs more than the most expensive Lt.
    If this was a singleplayer game MO would be hardmode as a result of it's limitations. Since it isn't you can face pretty steep odds against you and all you really get for it is a very nice Knight link.
     
    #287 Teslarod, Nov 13, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2019
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  8. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    But from the point of MO, Ariadna has a lot of different options too.

    -Cheap units and cheap orders
    -Lots of camo specialists and cheap camo units that are expensive (in terms of orders) to remove.
    -Ambush camo and minelayer to indirectly control the table
    -A lot of different camo options
    -Smoke grenades and lots of them
    -Warbands
    -Template weapons that aren't super expensive
    -Cheap units that can take a beating such as Dog-Warriors
    -fire mines

    Also just as a side point, climbing plus, superjump and mechanized deployment are also in Ariadna (iirc PanO and Ariadna are the only factions with mech. dep. currently.)
     
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  9. Tanan

    Tanan Active Member

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    @meikyoushisui agree with everything you say. The problem with Ariadna is that camo isn't that effective in deterrant* in reactive turn and during active turn there are a lot of things that negate surprise shot. It's more about freely moving around the table, which I have to admit is pretty awesome. Lately I have been using more and more HI and parachutists, because let's face it reactive crits happen and you don't want to lose a key model during your active turn.

    Is MO a mission specific sectoral? Because at least from my TAC point of view, Ariadna is very mission specific faction. We have several cheap (non-camo) Liason Officers which gives a lot of leeway in list building. But building a generalist list that can clear enemy backfield and do missions is simply not doable.

    Ariadna is also very mission specific. Really difficult to build a generalist list that can handle all missions.

    *People need to stop worriying about Ariadna camos. High ARM and wounds counter Ariadna low tech weapons pretty effectively. Just move right next to them and declare Discover+BS Attack.
     
    #289 Tanan, Nov 14, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2019
  10. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure what you mean. Ariadna has the same stats for similar weaponry, their loadouts aren't typically much different from what units of the same class of other factions have, and they have their own fair share of nasty ammo. That is on top of DAM differences between weapons contributing very little to overall statistics for firefights.

    By the same token, ARM doesn't do much. You can turn your lowly ARM 1 line trooper into top-line ARM 5 HI and it will change the outcome in roughly every tenth shootout on average. Wounds matter a lot more here though, but it's not like Ariadna armies lack 2W attack pieces or equivalents on their own. Most knights wish they had profiles and link options of Vet Kazaks, for example.

    I'm afraid you will likely run into realization just how much raw statblocks do for you compared to what you give up for them.

    Eh. While leveraging defensive camos is a bit more difficult than some people think, between occasional mine, dud, tricky chasseur or failed WIP roll leaving you with a dilemma of proceeding forward and stacking several ARO pieces upon yourself or looking for another route they do quite a lot against this particular approach, especially if you consider just how much stuff you need to chew through just to get your opponent's army down to the level of operational preedom your pristine 300 pts knight list starts the match with. When you compare this scenario with your plain 25-40 pts models just plain dying all the same and making much larger holes in your list in the process, the difference becomes more visible.

    But anyway, some players evidently managed to make what they gain in MO to work for them, and it's not like they don't have anything. While I don't know many of such players, I do understand the appeal of having armies with very different playstyles and running low body count lists after mechanical headaches of managing 2 almost full combat groups (as a HB "main" who expanded into IA disregarding all their faults).
     
    #290 Barrogh, Nov 14, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2019
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  11. Tanan

    Tanan Active Member

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    Lack of visors means that dealing with mimetism and TO is a pain in the ass. Lacking decent hacking options means that removing that ARM5 HI model in cover is very difficult at range. You need a multi wound HMG HI to deal with situation reliably which might not be available and even if it is, the enemy HI can probably still guts roll herself to safety and/or nearby doctor.

    Next turn the HI returns and kills whatever remains in the kill zone.

    Minelayers might be very good or completely useless depending on the mission. Usually they are useless, because it's rare that a mission requires you to advance very close to enemy DZ. And the model which comes close to your lines usually can take a beating and still kill whatever it needs to kill. Example: Dart.
     
  12. Ayadan

    Ayadan Knight of the TAG Order

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    Plus the fact that MO has access to Palbots to minesweep the field for cheap. Last time I played Vanilla against TAK, I had a Hospitaller Doctor rushing my opponent DZ with the Palbot forward to force mines to explode and Streloks to reveal themselves. The Hospitaller managed to score a classified, kill a Line Kazak and the Vet Kazak AP HMG in CC before the end of my turn. Took nearly 10 orders and an Irmandinho to my opponent to deal with him and the AROs I put on the way to get his back. The trick with Ariadna is to recognize which of them are the lethal ones and it's not that difficult as they are rarely the first ones you can get in sight.
    And in addition to Dart, MO has access to Auxbots. Ok, they are fairly costly compared to Auxilias but you can also attach an HRL to this OS + Auxbot and he is a better fighter than the Auxilia.
    I can see why @kanluwen wants to improve the range of the Auxilia's variety profiles and if this happens one day, I wish OS get the same as that's part of what is making them unique.
     
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  13. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Of course. Mastering the usage of "limited" tool is always a joy in itself (if someone is such a person). It's just that not everyone is up to such type of "pleasure/challange/difficulty".
     
  14. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    You don't even need surprise shot (it's helpfull but not gamebraeker). While playing Ariadna (eg. against MO) it's often enough to make your enemy guessing if one of the Camos is Tankhunter ML or not. That's usually most dominant (and often missed) part of camo shell game, the sole risk of facing sudden ML shot is more dangerous than an actual shot itself (search for "Damocle's sword" reference).
     
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  15. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    And potentially eat a Flame template unopposed ? No thank you ;P
     
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  16. Tanan

    Tanan Active Member

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    You declare Discover, if enemy signals delay, you know it's a Chasseur and declare Dodge as a second skill.
    If no delay, then declare BS attack.
     
  17. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    Declaring Dodge means you eat two flamethrower shots, one against your Dodge and one against whatever your next order.

    That's some of the best ARO odds you'll ever get, and you've wasted more orders than most ARO pieces do normally because of time spent getting near you and the minimum 2 orders we're talking about hear.

    Camo spam is absolutely *oppressive* to play against in your active turn.
     
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  18. Tanan

    Tanan Active Member

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    Also keep in mind that is the worst possible situation. You are facing vanilla or FRRM, no room to get LoF outside of ZoC, no drop troops, no sniffers and a reason to move into enemy territory.

    Chasseur has 6% chance of downing a Hospitaler Knight in this situation.
     
  19. Marduck

    Marduck Well-Known Member

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    Having played Ariadna Camo shell game, I would say their main weakness are warbands.

    Let your magister run free in the middle of the Camo.
    - Mines will detonate : you can dodge on 14.
    - Decoys and most trooper will declare nothing as they don't want to reveal to shoot at a 22 pts model with a shotgun and 17 dodge
    - Chasseur will say hold my ARO with 6th sens

    => you get a pretty good idea of what is what. Go straight for the back line (where line kazak and other cheap troopers are) to force them to reveal.

    You can do the same with sepulchre and holo.

    My advice = ignore everything that is not revealed. Just send the knights one at a time. If they want to stop you, they have to reveal, and you probably get a better BS and weapons than they do.
     
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  20. Lesh'

    Lesh' Infinity LATVIA
    Warcor

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    edited: wanted to be a smart-ass, but it appears I read diagonally.