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How competitive are MO?

Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by Context, Aug 14, 2019.

  1. theradrussian

    theradrussian Well-Known Member

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    There's plenty I disagree with in your reasoning, but for this one which stands out the most, see the below, as I suspect it wasn't read over (it discusses literally that):

     
  2. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    I mean, this is going to depend on what you like. For me, MO would not feel exciting to play because of low order counts spent often on one big link (which I find tedious). Perhaps you are a player who likes taking your time to position your link, or perhaps low order counts are more manageable to you/help you ensure you are using each order in the best way possible. There are lots of different armies that appeal to different players for different reasons.

    And it sucks because the new MO sculpts are all gorgeous. Literally some of the best minis in all of wargaming right now.

    I would question Ikari and MRRF in this. MRRF was already very solid pre-retirement update because 4 chasseurs, and Ikari has Yuan Yuans which pretty much makes them good by default. USA was lower-middling before but post-rework is also looking a lot more solid.

    One thing I can say about recent updates is that they've severely closed the gap in the middle of the game. Besides a few outliers at the far ends, the middle of the game feels really healthy.
     
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  3. oldGregg

    oldGregg Well-Known Member

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    uhhhh ... Yes. Absolutely. Top tier players digest statistics at a well above average level. Not only are pregame decisions made on these statistics, but so are in game decisions. The world cup encourages bonus points specifically to give teams a better chance in future tests by then matching them against teams statistically less likely to win. This is a huge part of rugby and just about any other professional or high level competitive sport/activity.

    As many others have said, you can absolutely beat the odds. You can use statistics to to inform decision-making and action-taking to increase you're own odds ... But their is still always the reasonable assumption of results based on these statistics. The Japanese feel they can win the whole shebang (or at least do well) based on some of the less looked at statistics. A really simple one, (and the most popular, but probably worst indicator), is that 6 out of the 8 hosts have won or been runner-up in the the world cup. Moral is very much a thing in rugby.
     
  4. Marduck

    Marduck Well-Known Member

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    Looking at videos and stats to know what the other team is likely to do and know their strengh / weakness or your strengh / weakness is a thing. But going to a fight thinking I'm 100% gonna lose because math say so is probably not how these people think imo.
     
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  5. Quehacesfede

    Quehacesfede Professional Catastrophiser

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    Yeah, they're fun to play with. I haven't been very successful with them since the rules changes but I'm still trying to make them work. Most of the time, it's a dice roll thing. My crappy dice rolls are legendary in my meta. Plus, I like the models more than any other faction. So they'll continue to see action under my command, even if the results I get continue to be subpar.

    I was about to say the exact same things about statistics in rugby. They go all the way from team macromanagement to in match micromanagement. I've played rugby for 15 years, and as we grew up and things became more serious, more statistics were involved before and during each game. More or less the same thing happens in Infinity, even if you're not aware of it. From list building to in game decisions stats are everywhere.
     
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  6. oldGregg

    oldGregg Well-Known Member

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    Can you point me to anywhere in the last few pages of this thread that a user has stated this? I might of missed it, but I think the argument is more about placement in a tier and statistical probability rather than guaranteed losses. i.e. "Because you are likely to have a harder time with MO, it is not considered by many to be a top tier competitive choice."
     
    #226 oldGregg, Oct 3, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2019
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  7. Marduck

    Marduck Well-Known Member

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    @Quehacesfede I guess you are talking stats about what is going on during the game (how many km run with the ball, failed pass / tackles etc ... ) to correct your training and game plan.

    Do you remember you coach telling you "guys stats say we should loos 70% of the time. So go easy and don't hurt yourself. Aim for a minor defeat." ?

    (Might have been more useful than what my actual coach used to say :) )


    @oldGregg off course nobody said that. I was exaggerating to demonstrate my point. But maybe that's not something that work in English.

    Guys I'm done answering to this topic which looks like to deaf people talking to each other.

    But if some of you want to discuss tactics, strategy or listbuilding that will be my pleasure.
     
  8. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    It simply boils down to what people wish to use as their metric for "competitive". I favor the "here are successful MO players describing how MO works for them after investing the time and effort" side of things, and have begun looking at how to incorporate some of those ideas. Others are free to use whatever other metrics they'd like.
     
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  9. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    That's not my point.
    Statements like above often appeal to matches being winnable for a better player. Because that's what I see being thrown around - "but if you are better player you can still win!".

    The question was never about being able to win against worse players. It's about not being disadvantaged simply because of your army choice, whatever reason made you pick it.

    Most gaming communities understand that balance debates only make sense when we assume factions are played by highest level faction experts of equal skill. But Infinity community always features someone trying to build this strawman and attack it instead.

    It may sound obvious, be called "truism" et cetera, but people fail to grasp it consistently often enough that it's worth saying.
     
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  10. Quehacesfede

    Quehacesfede Professional Catastrophiser

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    Actually it was something like "Ok guys, the other team will obliterate us. So don't try to be heroes and jeopardize ball possession. We need to keep the ball, advance enough to reach kicking distance and let the fly-half do his magic"

    The thing is, we went into the field knowing that the odds were against us. That didn't mean we wouldn't try to win the match just because we weren't favorites.

    @Marduck please keep posting in this topic. I really enjoy your views on MO, and find your comments valuable for a professional catastrophiser like me.

    Maybe we should focus in what is good about MO. Though I still consider MO subpar, I'm more than willing to put the emphasis on the good things of the sectorial so maybe we can leaf through the (for now) 12 pages of this thread and enhance our playing experience from what we find here.
     
  11. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Brisk antipodean

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    This is a good take.
     
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  12. theradrussian

    theradrussian Well-Known Member

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    I'd be happy to change my views, but so far I haven't heard a solution to the (in my opinion) realistic scenario I outlined prior, when told sensor bots solve all MO woes when it comes to camospam backed up by a strong linked ARO threat.

    One concession I will make is the KotHS is a decent, viable unit. Though tends to get gimped hard in deployment-restricted missions, while also eating up over a sixth of your points.
     
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  13. Domino25

    Domino25 Member

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    Coincidentally, I was just experimenting with some MO / MO flavoured Vanilla lists and from my armchair theorycrafting Holoprojector L2 would be pretty useful. I see the following, which I'll be a bit more detailed about for the sake of other novices like myself.

    1. Deploy Chain of command version as Obvious Lieutenant clones particularly when going 2nd against Impersonators. This gives them a 50% chance of dropping impersonation on an echo, a 25% chance of getting in a non-trival CC fight with the KotHS or a 25% chance of fighting your Lieutenant but not putting you in Loss of Lieutenant even if they win.
    2. CC Assault troop or button pusher- The holoecho mechanic encourages enemies to delay aros and waste them if you move-move. This seems like a good way to get itself into CC or button pushing position (with chain of command). If I'm not missing a restriction, using a coordinated order (cough Joan) would let this and the unit it's mimicking get into CC/button pressing position as they would see 4 Joans, know 2 are fake but not which ones. I assume echos only move the distance of the real trooper so you would have to be careful not to give it away with Mobility Joan
    3. Hacking/Deployment zone Guard - Playing a shell game as a hacker, or some sufficient deployment zone guard, any drop trooper or hackable Rambo might be deterred by the gamble that they drop into an Aro or enter the hacking area of the real thing. You probably have to include the real thing in your list to be credible.
    4. Deployable hazard cleaning - let the echos tank the mines, mad traps, koalas
    5. Suppressive fire holoecho trick - if in suppressive fire but out of LoS at the end of your active turn, you can recreate the echos and designate any of them or original as the real trooper, so you pop your suppressive fire guy into LoS. I imagine if it was just one enemy, you would probably shoot them instead but I guess the ideal usage here is when there are multiple troopers around the corner or expected to travel that area that you can pin down with one suppressive. So impetuous troopers or a objective?

    I'm curious if those are on point, less useful than I might be expecting or if I'm missing some other advantages. When you say KotHS is viable, which of those are you getting the value out of?
     
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  14. Domino25

    Domino25 Member

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    Would you consider a Spitfire KotHS a viable method of dealing with top end Aro link teams/long range weapons? I had a bad experience against varuna link team once, actually an ORC Feuerbach rather than the Kamau but the lesson I learned was that I should have a plan for that kind of thing. Seems like it might be an expensive trade if you lose, on the other hand, you should be able to finagle past the bad range and potentially find a weak link.
     
  15. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    Wait, I think you've got my position flipped somewhere. I was agreeing with you. I was pointing out that the position you're arguing against is a trueism. The whole point of a conversation about balance is to minimize all the factors that aren't the faction, such as player skill, meta, etc.
     
  16. herod1204

    herod1204 Knight of Santiago

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    I am still far too proud of hiding my koths as an order sergeant hacker, and baiting a zero out of camo. My opponent (who is an excellent infinity player) got very confused when I told him it was hackable but the programme he used did bugger all.

    Still got tabled. But that was a good moment.

    Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk
     
  17. Quehacesfede

    Quehacesfede Professional Catastrophiser

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    I've only used the spitfire KotHS twice with mixed results. The first time it was the FD version, which wiped out of the board pretty soon. His performance is too dependent on the initiative order. Basically, if you don't go first, he's screwed. The second time I used the NCO version and I deployed him in holo 2 state. My opponent immediately figured out he was the NCO, so he fixed on him and devoted too many resources on taking him down, which he eventually did but not before the KotHS taking down more than half of his army.

    The KotHS I use the most is the combi LGL one. FD places him near the action and, if you go first, you can spec fire into his DZ without risking him. Yes it is very order hungry, but once I wiped out an entire core of dakinis with a single shot and before he could fire a single bullet at me. And it felt great.
     
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  18. Teslarod

    Teslarod Trebuchet Enthusiast

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    This post sums up pretty well what's wrong with MO and why people cling to hope.
    Since the Montesa LGL died its fairly unique capabilities have been revamped into the KothS.
    All the problems remained though. It's still not reliable and it works best against someone who has no idea it's coming. There will be that one anecdotal game where you crit on an 11 against a badly positioned Link team and all secondary targets fail their ARM rolls.

    As long as someone wants to be part of the discussion with an argument based on a scenario like this it really doesn't matter what we're discussing. It'll never lead us anywhere.
    The KothS is one of the biggest questionmarks in MO. Primary problem being that it has massive anti synergy with how the usual MO list looks. A CoC Option more expensive than your already expensive Lt rips a giant hole in your budget to mitigate that risk at the expense of tying up 90-110 points of your point budget. Exiting.
    A midfield guy without the protection of Camo or Hidden Deployment has it rough. The only exceptions here are Kanren, Gangbusters, Ryuken ODDs and Morans. All of which bring their own midfield Minelayer/Perimeter weapons to protect themselves and other midfield Camo or their cheap Specialist options.
    Our KothS doesn't work all that well with the one other midfield choice MO has - TOFOOS. Neither can protect the other by projecting a ZOC threat, pretend to be the other or provide Mines/Perimeter.
    As a thanks for taking the interesting LGL choice, you get stuck with a Combi on a 50 points troop. Since you also don't have the Orders, points or cheap Specialists to really capitalize on his one advantage that guy is dead on arrival in MO. Vanilla might have a use for him, but that's also a bit of a stretch since the HGL Squalo exists in Vanilla and 2 other Sectorials.
    COC is out, LGL is out, that leaves us with the Spitfire. Unfortunately bringing good Spitfire Platforms is one of the things MO can pull off in abundance. This guy is still facing the unfortunate problem of requiring first turn to not die to a random Skirmisher, Dart, Brando, a Sujian, Mc Murder, a Tik/Serqph and various other things or forfeiting FD2 when going second to be stuck with another rather expensive but unlinkable Spitfire.
    Why not take a Santiago (who can Link, is a Specialist, has a better DTW, E/M Nades, a 360 Visor and is an Order cheaper as well as a Lt candidate). FD2 is fairly odd when you csn only expect to use it half the time. Might as well invest in Joan V2, a Seraph or Tik to just be faster/more efficient at killing to begin with.
     
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  19. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Problem in new MO is that it is actually full of excellent profiles (Santiago KHD, Hospitallers, Magister, Joan, Dart, heck even new KotHS could have some applications) but somehow building a reliable solid list is almost impossible.

    Its the same bad as english kitchen!
     
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  20. Quehacesfede

    Quehacesfede Professional Catastrophiser

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    Dude, way to burst my KotHS positivity bubble.

    Yes, in my case the KotHS wiping a dakini link was anecdotal, but if someone wants to try it, go ahead. I'll share my experience, maybe you'll find something useful. Or maybe you can use your god given common sense, and conclude that my anecdote was based on a ton of luck and move on.

    Do I think the KotHS is tournament material? Of course not, it's an overpriced piece of shit. But I stated I'll stop doing the "MO is crap" thing and try to focus on the redeemable things of MO.

    Wiping an entire dakini link is a redeemable thing to consider in favor of the KotHS? I don't know, judge for yourselves. Maybe nobody in your meta would be dumb enough to deploy fireteam members close enough to each other to be hit by one grenade. So my anecdote will be of no use. Or maybe they are, and you use the KotHS, and you blow up your opponents fireteam and have some fun in the process. And then you put away your KotHS in your miniature case, never to be used again because deep down you know that you've reached the pinnacle of what the KotHS can do, because it's crap and because you can put those 55 points to better use.

    So taking all of this into consideration. I think there's some value in my post, no matter how anecdotal it is.

    As for this particular phrase:
    Man, this whole thread is 12 pages long leading nowhere. The hundreds of whiny "MO is underpowered" posts (in which I have contributed greatly) in this thread and many others have led us nowhere. This has become the rule for this forum:

    Guy posts a question about MO
    Guy gets answer from more experienced player
    Another experienced player says MO is crap
    12 pages of bitching and whining about how crappy is MO with zero productive content leading nowhere

    This thing is getting so grotesque that people will start making "katanas are underpowered in D20" memes, but with MO units instead of katanas in the short term. It'll be hilarious basically because it's true and because we are whiny as hell.