@Teslarod Good logic, good anecdote as well. Generally, I agree with you. My opening turn tends to follow a similar format since I tend to play direct, aggressive factions. In NCA and (to a large extent) Acon, the idea of an aggressive LT who is worth spending Orders on just doesn't exist. The closest you could probably come is Kirpal Singh supporting a Montessa, and I don't think I've seen or heard of anyone reaching for that combination. The notion is quite a bit better in JSA, where some aggressive LT options do exist, and their CoC is nice and inexpensive. That being said, I see some challenges. Kuroshi Rider probably isn't going to survive receiving 11 Orders of pure combat application; she can't crack a decent opponent's starting defense. Domaru LT has a Chain Rifle and is probably linked, so he's not doing anything where his LT Order is worthwhile. For you, as someone who has their eye on the O-Yoroi, that's obviously a perfect fit. Now we get into the listbuilding question: Can you field an O-Yoroi LT, Kempetai Chain of Command, 2nd Group support Attacker, and hit the 14-16 Orders you visualize? *Glances through Army* Okay yeah, I see the appeal. I'm still not sure that the extra Order from the LT justifies the 2.5 Orders you lose when buying a Kempetai, but since we both agree the Kempetai is a pretty solid late-game sweeper and can make decent contributions to a JSA regardless of CoC, I see how it works. If I were running an O-Yoroi, trying to also use CoC, I'd probably do something like the list below. But in this situation, I still feel some inclination to drop the Kempetai completely, get a Keisotsu LT, then use the refunded points to buy a Sensor Bot (ha) and add another Order to the 2nd Combat Group to help the Rui Shi stomp around a bit more. What are your O-Yoroi lists looking like? Japanese Secessionist Army ────────────────────────────────────────────────── GROUP 1 10 O-YOROI Lieutenant AP HMG + Heavy Flamethrower, CrazyKoalas / EXP CCW. (3 | 86) RYŪKEN (Forward Deployment L2, ODD) Submachine Gun, Antipersonnel Mines, D-Charges / 2 Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 24) RYŪKEN (Forward Deployment L2, ODD) Submachine Gun, Antipersonnel Mines, D-Charges / 2 Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 24) KEISOTSU Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 17) KEISOTSU (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10) KEISOTSU Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 9) KEISOTSU Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 9) KEISOTSU Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 9) KEISOTSU Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 9) KEMPEI (Chain of Command) Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, CCW, Electric Pulse. (0 | 21) GROUP 2 5 1 1 YOJIMBO Contender, Nanopulser, Smoke Grenades, CrazyKoalas (2) / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 21) RUI SHI Spitfire / Electric Pulse. (1.5 | 20) CHAĪYÌ Yaókòng Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) PANGGULING (Minesweeper, Repeater) Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) PANGGULING (Minesweeper, Repeater) Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) TOKUSETSU KOHEI Engineer Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14) YÁOZĂO Electric Pulse. (0 | 3) 6 SWC | 300 Points Open in Infinity Army
@barakiel Japanese Secessionist Army ────────────────────────────────────────────────── GROUP 1 10 O-YOROI Lieutenant AP HMG + Heavy Flamethrower, CrazyKoalas / EXP CCW. (3 | 86) RUI SHI Spitfire / Electric Pulse. (1.5 | 20) KEMPEI (Chain of Command) Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, CCW, Electric Pulse. (0 | 21) KEISOTSU Missile Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 14) KEISOTSU (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10) KEISOTSU Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 9) KEISOTSU Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 9) KEISOTSU Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 9) KEISOTSU Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 9) KEISOTSU Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 9) GROUP 2 5 2 1 SAITO TOGAN (Specialist Operative) Combi Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, EXP CCW, Knife. (0 | 40) YOJIMBO Contender, Nanopulser, Smoke Grenades, CrazyKoalas (2) / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 21) CHAĪYÌ Yaókòng Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) PANGGULING (Minesweeper, Repeater) Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) PANGGULING (Minesweeper, Repeater) Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) WARCOR (Aerocam) Flash Pulse / Stun Pistol, Knife. (0 | 3) WÈIBĪNG Yaókòng Combi Rifle, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 16) 6 SWC | 300 Points Open in Infinity Army When I write a list I usually write them in pairs to allow a certain amount of weakpoints or to include faction specific countermeasures I cover with the other one. The Oyoroy list would see use against lists with bigger bodycounts, multitude of mines/DTWs, good CC troops or vs weak Hacking. Some examples would be all of Ariadna/Onyx/PanO/MO/NCA/JSA. The 2nd set replaces the Oyoroi with a Keisotsu HMG and TO guys - this is pretty much what got me playing JSA. You might notice a certain theme in the name.... but it's also what I'd go for against Vanilla Nomads/Bakunin/Vanilla CA/Vanilla Haqq/Hassassins/ Artichoke Salad ────────────────────────────────────────────────── GROUP 1 10 SHINOBU Lieutenant Combi Rifle, Nanopulser, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Monofilament CCW. (1 | 47) KEMPEI (Chain of Command) Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, CCW, Electric Pulse. (0 | 21) KEISOTSU HMG / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 17) KEISOTSU Missile Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 14) KEISOTSU (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10) KEISOTSU Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 9) KEISOTSU Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 9) KEISOTSU Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 9) KEISOTSU Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 17) RUI SHI Spitfire / Electric Pulse. (1.5 | 20) GROUP 2 6 2 1 SAITO TOGAN (Specialist Operative) Combi Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, EXP CCW, Knife. (0 | 40) NINJA Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Tactical Bow / Pistol, DA CCW, Knife. (0 | 29) YOJIMBO Contender, Nanopulser, Smoke Grenades, CrazyKoalas (2) / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 21) KEISOTSU Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 9) KEISOTSU Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 9) CHAĪYÌ Yaókòng Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) PANGGULING (Minesweeper, Repeater) Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) WARCOR (Aerocam) Flash Pulse / Stun Pistol, Knife. (0 | 3) 5.5 SWC | 300 Points Open in Infinity Army It's interesting to see that despite 75% identical list the overall concept changes a lot. You're going to do a lot of work with the Ryouken - where I went for a CC Specialist and a second Smoke and somehow ended up with a Sensor bot along the way. That's almost certainly your fault (:P). Bringing a Sensor for TF everytime a list includes a TAG somehow even trumps the Engineer. With the Lt Order and Yojimbo's Ex Imp both list actually have two hidden extra Orders (and a Warcor + Command Token, something else I always try to include). Can't really stress how much it amazes me that JSA gets some of their deadliest options in the 20 points bracket - eternally core linked Keisotsu HMG, Rui Shi and Yojimbo in combination round off next to any list in a very nice way.
Good lists, both of which I'd gladly play. I'm going to start organizing my responses a bit better, because there's a lot of good ground to cover here: List Building Replies and Area Control I think one of my big reasons for dependency on the Ryuken-9 SMG stems from one of my longtime frustrations with Yu Jing: it's easy to take ground, but more difficult to hold it. I found that to be a frustrating trend through all my dabbling with Vanilla Yu Jing, ISS and JSA in the past. I also felt that once the enemy opened up a breach in my lines, my NCA/Acon were very good at halting the damage in the reactive turn before it got too extreme, but I never quite found that formula for success with the East Asian faction/Sectorials. So I think that the Ryuken-9 are my tool for addressing that phenomenon, and thus far they've done a really good job. On the whole though, I think you and I are on similar pages with our listbuilding. Our 2nd Combat Groups in particular are pretty much identical, and the first combat groups are also built around Keisotsu and an MSV2 unit fueling a heavy hitter. Right now, I'm trying to figure out if I can get away with dropping the Keisotsu missile and only running the linked HMG. Obviously I love strong defensive hard-hitting AROs, but I'm very conscious of the many engagements that the missile makes in the 0 band. I wouldn't mind so much, but the lack of Cube means I feel like SWC invested in the missile is unlikely to yield dividends. Doctor/Engineers or No Ran a list last night where I abandoned my usual Doctor. I've been trying Engineers also, and abandoned that as well. However, it let me get some fierce tools... Of course, my opponent was now extremely conscious of the fact that he didn't need to kill anything outright, just knock it down. The result was that I ended up with Unconscious Kempetai MSV2, Saito, Keisotsu HMG, Rui Shi, Weibing and a Ryuken-9 by the end of the game, all easily doctorable/repairable and all very close to my lines. I still won the scenario (sometimes holding an Oniwaban until Turn 3 is the right move) but I was definitely looking longingly at all those Unconscious bodies and wishing I could do something about it. I'll have to contemplate on that some more. Hacking My mission last night was Transmission Matrix, and obviously has a strong Hacking emphasis. As we discussed before @Teslarod , I'm ending up with lists that are mostly non-Hackable. I think the JSA HI approach can be a slippery slope of point expenditure... You buy HI... Then you want a standard Hacker for Faerie Dust... Then a KHD to back them up... Then smoke so they can get up the table... Then an Engineer and Doctor... And before you know it, all your points are gone just to support what is (in my opinion) a sort of indifferent, points-hungry pain train. I know I'm going a bit overboard with all those support units, but the fact remains that everything I listed is helpful for support HI in some way. But JSA is in an interesting position with its Hackers. The Keisotsu Hacker is great for supportware, being so cheap. The KHD is nice for rapidly reacting to enemy Hackers that show up, as well as being a good generic cheap Specialist, plus it keeps its good gunfighting weaponry. The Ninja is capable of some great shenanigans, though it's so finesse oriented and limited in its combat applications that I doubt it will ever be a main staple of any list I play. And while I'd like to bring Assault Hackers back into the fold, JSA isn't the force I'll do it with. 40 points for a Ninja Hacker is obscene, and the Aragoto Hacker is too vulnerable I think. The Swiss Hacker has actually spoiled me in terms of its control and survivability for putting an Assault device on the table, and 3 Fugazi gives you Repeater options that JSA just won't have. But JSA Hackers are very good at replying directly and aggressively, but it does mean they're putting themselves on the line when they do so (very thematically appropriate for the Sectorial.) Next Steps I'm getting pretty comfortable with the general list formatted I've picked out. I've played 9 games (including an ITS) that have all gone well. Matchups have been fairly varied: -Vanilla ALEPH 3 times, vs 2 players -Steel Phalanx 1 time -Onyx 1 time -Acon 1 time -NCA 1 time -Hassassin Bahram 1 time -ISS 1 time I need practice v more Vanilla factions, and specifically Vanilla Ariadna / Caledonia. I need to see how I handle 20 Orders full of Camo and templates. I'll also branch out my listbuilding and give the samurai a fair shake, just to have some more perspective on them.
Funny enough I lost a game of Transmission Matrix to a couple bad decisions as well as exellent execution on my opponent's part with NCA vs JSA on Friday. That game was a fitting example why I think JSA doesn't want or need to bring anything back up. Spoiler Neoterran Capitaline Army ────────────────────────────────────────────────── GROUP 1 10 SWISS GUARD HMG / Pistol, AP CCW. (2 | 68) AUXILIA (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle + AUXBOT_1 / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15) AUXBOT_1 Heavy Flamethrower / Electric Pulse. (- | 4) AUXILIA Lieutenant Combi Rifle + AUXBOT_1 / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 14) AUXBOT_1 Heavy Flamethrower / Electric Pulse. (- | 4) FUSILIER HMG / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 18) FUSILIER (Forward Observer, Deployable Repeater) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12) FUSILIER Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10) FUSILIER Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10) FUSILIER Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10) CSU (Specialist Operative) Rifle + Light Shotgun, Nanopulser / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12) CSU (Specialist Operative) Rifle + Light Shotgun, Nanopulser / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12) GROUP 2 7 1 HEXA Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0 | 27) TRAUMA-DOC Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14) PALBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3) PALBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3) WARCOR (Aerocam) Flash Pulse / Stun Pistol, Knife. (0 | 3) FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) GARUDA Tacbot Spitfire / Electric Pulse. (1.5 | 28) PATHFINDER DRONBOT Combi Rifle, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 16) 5.5 SWC | 299 Points Open in Infinity Army Japanese Secessionist Army ────────────────────────────────────────────────── GROUP 1 10 1 SHINOBU Combi Rifle, Nanopulser, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Monofilament CCW. (0.5 | 47) KUROSHI RIDER Lieutenant Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower / Breaker Pistol, AP + Shock CCW. (0 | 33) RUI SHI Spitfire / Electric Pulse. (1.5 | 20) YURIKO ODA Combi Rifle + E/Mitter, D-Charges, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, CCW. (0 | 23) KEMPEI (Chain of Command) Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, CCW, Electric Pulse. (0 | 21) KEISOTSU HMG / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 17) KEISOTSU Missile Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 14) KEISOTSU Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 9) KEISOTSU Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 9) KEISOTSU Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 9) GROUP 2 5 1 1 NINJA Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Tactical Bow / Pistol, DA CCW, Knife. (0 | 29) RYŪKEN (Forward Deployment L2, ODD) Submachine Gun, Antipersonnel Mines, D-Charges / 2 Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 24) YOJIMBO Contender, Nanopulser, Smoke Grenades, CrazyKoalas (2) / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 21) CHAĪYÌ Yaókòng Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) PANGGULING (Minesweeper, Repeater) Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) PANGGULING (Minesweeper, Repeater) Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) 5 SWC | 300 Points Open in Infinity Army Turn 1 JSA: Shinobu Data Tracker kills Designated Target, CSU, Data Tracker Auxilia and Trauma Doc. Yojimbo kills a Pathfinder. Turn 1 NCA: Swiss puts down Yojimbo and Shinobu. Fusilier HMG dies to Keisotsu ML (outrangd by 1 1/2" - happens). Garuda goes up against the Keisotsu Link and only gets the trade for the ML - massive fuckup on my part as I could not have scored that Antenna either way and there was a completely unprotected Rui Shi + Baggage Bot on the other side of the table. JSA is ahead 5-0 OP, I've put my NCA in a tough position through sheer stupidity. Turn 2 JSA: I reveal the Hexa KHD in an act of utter disregard for probability to take a 15% shot at a freshly Blind Kuroshi Rider Lt. The Rui Shi cleans up a couple cheerleaders and kills the Hexa.... Swiss wasted most of the Rui Shi's Orders after he failed to Discover. Turn 2 NCA: Swiss does Swiss things and scores a (almost) perfect turn. After I pass an internal WIP roll not to CDC Shinobu for my Classified he goes on a mad dash towards the middle Objective, killing the Rui Shi, Baggage Bot in his DZ on the left and the Kuroshi Rider in the other half of my DZ in Order each. Clutch but we're back in the game despite earlier fuckups. However with the last Order a Ninja KHD reveals with an Engage. The Ninja fails with a 13 and the Swiss matches him with more of the same missing all 4 shots and I'm out of Orders. As a last deperate measure the Auxilia Lt tries to shoot the Ninja in the back on 2s but doesn't get lucky. Group 2 shuffles 2 Fugazi around to overwatch the revealed Ninja. Swiss outscores Ryouken & Ninja. 5-2 for JSA. I decide I have a very good chance to turn this around if he doesn't get his 2nd Classified. Turn 3: the Swiss is tucked in a corner and only the Ninja can get to him. JSA is out of Command Tokens which leaves the Ninja with 2 Orders in Group 2. Ninja walks into btb with the Swiss, both Fugazi fail to hit on 10s. Oh boy. Swiss fails an ARM save and takes a wound. Last Order - all eyes on the dice 1v1. The Ninja wins, not a crit. ARM Roll is a pass ... and a fail. I get the satisfaction of CDCing Shinobu with a Fugazi, a Fusilier Combi gets the Ninja. We call the game as I can only tie in Antennas. 6-4 JSA. Doctor/Engineers or No For JSA I'd vote no for both. Keisotsu lack Cubes, Oyoroy lacks REM:PRES, Assaultpieces are readily available and feature high mobility, Infiltration, Dogged/NWI. All of that makes it hard to pick anything back up. Combined with AVA Total Regular Orders any Engineer/Doc pretty much means -1 Order. However forfeiting both for Classifieds makes things quite hard when you're trying to score the full 3 points. As so often it dependsa lot on the Mission. They're most certainly less great than in PanO for these kind of lists. Engineer/Doc get a lot better with the HI Link - so maybe that concept is superiour for HC? Hacking Truth be told I found a Hacking Device is almost another Order, I don't expect to heavily rely on the Rui Shi early on and he is pretty much the only thing I'd take a Hacker for. Fairy Dust is nice to have, but I'm hardly facig any AHDs when I play MO or Aleph. I'd expect JSA to have even less of a problem here. Most of the time something like this happens you can bail them out with either AD, Infiltrator, KHD or Stealth. JSA lacks AD, but compensates with Yojimbo/Ninja/Oniwaban. As an anecdote my usual SAA opponent mentioned how much less stressed playing against NCA was compared to SAA. Especially a Tik going first or dropping as Reserve behind a Minefield was a challenge. Loads of Camo and Mines might indeed be a steep challenge for unhackable JSA. The whole list is relying on Yojimbo and the Sensorbot in this matchup - might be another thing the Oyoroy would be able fix. Let's see about that.
@Teslarod Good comments, interesting game too. When both sides have suffered massive attrition, it's interesting to see what solutions players can come up with. Re: Doctor/Engineer The lack of Keisotsu re-rolls is definitely significant. Ryuken-9, Saito, Oniwaban are good Doctoring candidates, except that they start far away. I don't hesitate to run a palbot into the midfield to pick up a power piece like Saito or an Oniwaban if I feel the game hinges on it, and I like having the option. I'll just need to keep playtesting this one... Having a lot of Unconscious bodies and no Doctor in my last practice game was a little agonizing. Re: Hacking The Keisotsu Hacker is pretty much just there to authorize REMs, which is something I'm happy to give up an Order for. Obviously the Rui Shi is important for any list, and you know how highly I regard the Sensor bot, so I'm willing to pay those +8 points over a regular Keisotsu to be able to include those in my list. Interesting too btw that an opponent would feel more stressed playing Acon. I personally have stress with NCA, Onyx, etc because of those lurking Hidden Deployment AROs. At least with Acon, I can see where everything will be and try to anticipate it, but I understand fearing a Tik rush or soemething similar. Having played the Tik a lot in recent months, there's not much that can keep it from doing damage against an opponent who is practiced with it. Next steps: Minelayer and template-heavy DZ defense is definitely something I'm thinking about, given that my unit selection is focusing a lot on light units. That's one reason why I mentioned wanting to play Vanilla Ariadna in practice games, which links up with a question that @Dude brought up in a separate discussion: for a JSA approach with no TAG and no HI, relying mostly on 1-Wound troops with visual modifiers, how dangerous are opponents with plenty of mines, chain rifles, etc? I especially need to try this in missions that focus on confrontation around a center objective, like Acquisition, to see if I need to make Karakuri, Domaru, etc. part of my repertoire for JSA. I'll probably experiment a bit with Daiyokai/Domaru Haris as well. I don't think they're giving me the precision high-probability exchanges that I generally look for in my unit selection, but obviously they care very little about the ablative damage that makes Saito or an Oniwaban very nervous. I'm not really sure if they they can handle a talented opponent who clearly sees that they're coming during Deployment (the second you put down any 2 of those 3 units, the opponent will know exactly what it is.)
Hey Barakiel - really enjoyed your recent write up. Is the Mushashi / Tanko Harris one you see yourself running much in future?
Thanks for reading, @Kanzu , and congratulations on a great ITS season so far too. I've seen your name in the rankings. Good question about the Haris. I'm interested in trying it, and probably will do so in the next couple of weeks. The only challenge I have is trying to justify the Haris over an Oniwaban/Saito, which are slightly more expensive but very Order efficient and easy to protect. The real advantage of the Haris of course is a very rugged 5.5 Wounds for cheaper cost, compared to the mere 2 Wounds you get from buying two Super Ninja for higher cost. I also like Blitzens a lot with their great rangeband, I think they're a very underappreciated piece of equipment. Have you tried the Musashi/Tanko Haris yet?
Hey Barakiel, Congratulations to you too on your high ranking in the season so far! No, I haven't had any experience with them on the table to date. While I like the idea of a linked Missile Launcher as an annoying ARO piece, I think the combination I'll try first is the SMG and Contender Tanko profiles with Mushashi. Will be interesting seeing how they perform / how they can be best delivered on the table. Japanese Secessionist Army ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 3 2 MIYAMOTO MUSHASHI (Regular, Fireteam: Haris) Chain Rifle, Flash Pulse / Pistol, AP CCW, EXP CCW. (0.5 | 28) TANKŌ Blitzen, Submachine Gun / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon, Shock CC Weapon. (0 | 23) TANKŌ Flammenspeer, Contender / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon, Shock CC Weapon. (0 | 23) 0.5 SWC | 74 Points Open in Infinity Army
