To expand on what xagroth said, it's the same as every other place in the rules that specifies the same Order must be used - you declare the same sequence of Skills during that Order.
Well that is the used way for now because i'm not sure anybody asked questions like i did. But troopers have profile and such defining their movement values etc... in my 3 options, each time I DID exactly declare the same sequence of skills (there is no point of discussion here at all). The difference is the resolution of them. I'm quite confused as how my point isn't clear... it perhaps come from my mathematical background shouting me that what you are saying is just an interpretation not a demonstration of how the rules are. To continue on this logical (mathematical) approche : My whole argument is The point where holoechoes cannot have ODD or stealth because they have no profile : No profile <=> No equipement or skills : this could be an axiome (an fundamental rule of infinity) : if you say so ijw : ok i trust you no issue. Do holoechoes have a profile : No specifically written <=> No profile because What isn't written Black on white doesn't exist : ok another axiome of infinity rules (again provided by ijw) What Can holoechoe do : They have no profile <=> they do nothing (but sit and declare and only declare the same skill sequence as the main dude). Am i really wrong ? I may be a bit too firm on my arguments and i apologize but i want to avoid running in circle because everyone post only what they think should be the proper ruling.
Dude, the rulebook was written by spanish people who are from a place famous for their ambiguity. Do yourself a favor, and try to not follow strict logics here :/ Also, it's a game. The same way building's projections won't provide cover against speculative fire, or the Hidden Deployment troops are in a quantum state of inexistence until they show up...
The problem is that he (and I think all of us) doesn't want to be told that something works or not just depending on the feeling of the TO and his houseruling. The fact is, a lot of the Infinity rules work very well using RAW and that's what is nice to me. So when something shows up like this that is unclear, we ask you something solid for the reasons I exposed. What we are willing here is just to show up to CB that the Holoechoes aren't clear enough and that a clarification of this state would be a good thing in the next FAQ. We just do this to make this game even better, not to be the guys who like to point out how bad the rules are written.
At what point do you draw the line when the rules get absurd, though? When you have to specify under what gravity they work in? For me, at least, specifying at what speed a Holoecho that is an exact replica of the carrying soldier moves in is crossing the line where that specificity of rules is absurd. Specifying whether Patroclus' Echoes also have access to ODD/Mimetism, however, is sort of a requirement.
Context: MODs and target values are Open Information unless you're using abilities that explicitly make them private. Target numbers for Superior Infiltration, for instance, is Private Information. Target number for BS Attack is impossible to get into a situation where it is private? EDIT: added question mark.
Or in other words, for the OP of this thread: are you allowed to "lie" and say that the Holoecho has Mimetism or ODD before you measure and define the final MODs to the roll? And, if the enemy shoots against an holoecho of an ODD troop, does he suffer the ODD MOD or not? Because if not, then he knows, regardless of hitting or not (an empty echo won't vanish if the enemy fails the attack), the emptyness under that model.
Yeah... I'm following this with interest, I just felt that just dumping the quote without context was a bit upsetting.
Not sure I understood exactly what you meant but of course we are pushing this to the aburd because as it is written for now the Holoecho state rule leave place to absurd situation if you are a RAW adept and confusing if you aren't (my brother wasn't a RAW adept since this specific question with the ODD and Holoecho and is now kind of burnt about this). If CB would have written: - Holoechoes copy the profile of their owner and use it in order to execute any skill the bearer of the Holoecho 2 declared. and then: - Holoechoes copy any special skill or equipement the bearer uses unless it is stated they can't be used while in Holoecho state or - Holoechoes copy any special skill or equipement the bearer uses with no exception. We would not be there to debate with you because we would have seen in HSN3 that it is stated how exactly this equipement and state work.
It's only an issue for Patroclus due to absence of NFB. But what I mean is that there is a point where asking for clarity just becomes absurd, and what's asked at the time I wrote that I felt was kind of more than toeing over the line of what's absurd. For an extreme example; do we really need CB to specify what gravity is required in order for a model to conduct a Move order? Or less, extreme, do we really need CB to specify that a model can't stand on a 90° wall just because they haven't specified when a wall is no longer considered horizontal? But that said, for Patroclus I feel more clarity really is needed.
Ok, now I understood. And I get your point and agree with it. I would just extend to Stealth too as this affect the ARO declaration too and doesn't have NFB (not that I WANT my KotHS holos to have stealth, just to know if I can make them stealthy without cheating my opponent).
Well, do note that this is reasoning following the question "how could this work, assuming that it actually work?"; the echoes have exactly the same stats and abilities as the host, but they are troopers only in the cases where the rules state they are so any abilities that depend on the user being a trooper will often not work at all. This is the only logical way to allow them to move. Logically this would mean that echoes of Kanren and KOTHS have Stealth and that echoes of Patroclus not only have Stealth but also access to the CH skills, but I'd still be very interested to know if when shooting on a Patroclus echo (or the main dude) when hiding as a Thorakitai if the opponent gets to find out there's ODD involved if they roll too poorly to hit the interesting range of numbers.
Well, the "problem" about Stealth is "three models move inside the ZoC of an enemy (hacker or not), you have to declare ARO against one of these two here before this third model here declares his second short order", painting a huge bullseye on the real model... XD
No: first, because your interpretation of what is a legal target of an ARO with Stealth involved is at worst wrong and at best merely contentious (my response to 3 models move inside ZoC of an enemy Hacker, 2 with not-Stealth and 1 with Stealth would be to declare a Hack vs the Stealthed one as per these threads); second, you'd just go 'these three models Move to here without using Stealth, you have an ARO' if your main objective was hiding who was the actual trooper (given that in your example, and with the way you play Stealth your primary objective is using Stealth to prevent the KotHS from being hacked losing the shell game is a reasonable trade off). Until Resolution, you certainly don't need to tell your opponent what the MODs actually are only what they appear to be. This is true for Holo 1 and Holo 2 as much as it is (potentially in reverse) for Holo 3.
No, the context is that MODs aren't determined until the Resolution step. If you pick a decoy Holoecho as your target, that's when you'll find out that there is no ODD MOD.
I'm not certain what you are correcting exactly, but while you are here could you answer the one about Patroclus echoes and ODD?
Looks like I crossed posts with inane.imp. The actual MODs don't become known until the Resolution step, until then everyone thinks that all the Holoechos have ODD. Stealth is messier.
So, if I understand this right, my enemy shoots at one of Patroclus' echoes, and I can legally say to him "it's an ODD Myrmidon, that declares Inaction as his ARO, so you would be at -9 because ODD and cover MODs", then at the time dice has to be rolled, I MUST say "ok, the final MODs are -3 because of cover", or can I wait until he rolled, and if he managed a hit inside that -6 range the ODD applies, say that it was an empty echo and remove the model? On the contrary, if I disguise Patroclus as three Asuras (because I wanna disguise my 2 Nagas and 1 Dasyu as a miner naga or something like that), I'd say "you roll at -3 because of cover", then if he shots against the real Patroclus, I would have to apply the -6 from ODD after the roll? Kinda like "you dodge and fall inside a mine's det zone, so we check your dodge roll at -3 to see if you eat shrapnel or not"?
False holoechoes do not ARO so the legal declaration is no ARO (I imagine that's what you mean by inaction. I usually don't specify my ARO trooper by trooper when holoechoes have LOF but just says "I don't declare any ARO"). And yes, you are right on all this, as long as you don't hit the resolution step, you lie regarding the echo true equipement but when you reach it, you give the true malus.
