Up to eleven: a Lu Duan disguised as 3 Aragotos and an enemy hacker (in his first active turn, no stealth, first short order) gets inside the Repeater's area... and you have 2-3 hackers to ARO with...
Firstly i'll Comment the fact that i'm the player who played the game at the beginning of these question. Secondly : Trully ? I don't want to be an ass or overbearing but you didn't play it against smart opponent, mine was a experienced one and on the moment, with doubts from the orga, we ruled it as no modifier. This makes patrocles the most easily discernable holoechoes in the game (yes he has the most expensive device...). I'll provide you with quick examples so you may see how stupid it gets : Firsly you say that you never declare discover against an holoechoes because it is a suicide (depends on who does but generaly yes). Patroclus IF rules as you say doesn't EVER need to be discovered with a discover. Just declare shoot, if there is no mod it is an holo : Bam auto discover! Plus you get the chance to fight back if it was the good one (and to crit event with his DDO+Suprise-shot he can go down with a good crit, a discover that crit is far less armful ^^). Second example: You start first, have doubts on the 3 dakini of you opponent, you take one regular/cheap/specialist dude with combi, flash pulse/ whatsoever from your, you put yourself in lof, still very far away in your deployment zone, you wait if there is no aro (if it was a true one you take a shot at *-6-3=-9 lol^^), if not just take a shot at your mighty -9, if you can't hit , it's patrocles and the 2 other are dummies, if you are at -12 it's a real one, if you are a -9, Patroclus is there and that was one of his holoes. Best discover with disgusting mod ever! Third, you move with you holoes, a swiss guard ML pops and open fire on your Holo at a mighty 18! you can try to smoke if but at 16 vs 18 and not a 16 vs 12(it would be 9 if he targeted the real dudes tanks to surprise shot). From a rule point of view, I don't really agree with the reasoning from before. For me the markers impersonate as private information Patroclus stats and equipement, take as open information, patroclus and his open infromation. They are complete and indiscriminable (until discover or ARM/BTS roll) copies. Then they do copy the DDO trait, When a Shoot is declare, when you check modifier, you are obliged to reveal the private information of this profile concerning the MOD, there private information states a DDO, you have to announce a -6 (if you were impersonating something without, you give away the fact that their is some schenanigans going on, but not if you are real or not). Then if the roll is successful, you have to cancel you copy state because it is your rules of cancellation, then you disappear. before this point you were as real as there is to be. The fact that you are a marker doesn't need to be checked yet, so you are real! Lastly, i'm not even sure that being a Marker and having Mod is even written as illegal ^^.
I only need to see/shoot 2 of them to determine which of the three is the real Pat. Worst case, if neither holoecho I shoot has the ODD mod, then the one I couldn't see is the one I need to kill. Don't even need to hit, just need to declare the shots because the ODD mod will be revealed. If I luck out and find one holoecho with the ODD mod during my shooting, well, "concentrate all firepower on that Super Star Destroyer!" If Pat is the echo I can't see from that model, well, that's why I have an LGL in my list for Speculative Fire and I will rain grenades on his head. I can see why Holo2 wouldn't allow for any holoecho to have ODD up, Holo2 and ODD have NFB. But Pat has Holo3, which explicitly does NOT have the NFB tag and allows you to stack Holo1's "look like another model" with Holo2's "deploy 3 holoechoes that look like you". So why can't Pat's Holo3 put up holoechoes that have ODD?
Because Holoechos don't have any Equipment or Special Skills. It's worth remembering that Holoechos are still largely an active turn ability, they've never been much use in reaction.
As mentioned, this only comes up if Patrocles doesn't ARO or declare a non-movement second short skill. At that point, the modifiers will tell you if you had the real target or not, even if you miss the shot and don't cause it to be removed from the table. This is marginally weaker than other holo3 troops, since in that same situation they would not have revealed any information. However, even in that case, the extra holoecho still gives you several advantages, such as clearing mines or koalas, surprise shot, etc.
I don't think this was the good idea. You pay premium for the level 3, so why use level 2 that makes Patroclus even weaker. Lore wise, the holoechoes could have ODD, but rule wise, I find it difficult to say yes or no to each opinion. Holoechoes are decoys after all. I don't see the existing reason of a decoy device that lets its user still being easily noticed.
I don't think the complaint as voiced is all that valid if there is a solution that is being refused. It's like tactically downgrading a TO Camo to Camo. Basically, you get the choice of attempting shell games or keeping Patroclus safer. I do understand that you'd want ODD to apply to the Echoes and logically ODD should apply to the Echos since it's an "optical disruption" necessary to be replicated to give a convincing false projection: "Oh no, I see two murder robots and one blurry outline, I don't know which one is real, Command tells me there's holoprojections afoot so I'm going to have to test shoot all of them to see who is real" I mean, it wouldn't make any less sense than Jammers not being affected by ODD because apparently not requiring LOF means you don't suffer from optical displacements. Would mean Holo 1 or 2 would have to include a bit of rules that makes them incapable of disguising as CH troops convincingly.
Even so, it is still an order used to shoot at a fake and not at the real. Not so bad for an "active turn ability".
Active turn ability, why not (even if i disagree because of the fact that it's reseted at the beginning of your reactive turn), did no one read my part about the missile ? A patroculs is very vulnerable against missile, because the missile is more effective if it aims at a dummy than at the real one. Or you are forced to never cross near the 5.5cm around the movement of your holoes. On a 15-10 models that's a 26*11 cm *2 dead zone . Where is it written ? As copying, i don't see the problem of also copying skills and equipement, The holoes are still stealthy no ? or do you consider that you even break the stealth given by martial art? From my point i think this should be used only to proxy as thorakitai and not to be reaveal as a false thorakitai on he mod only, as the modwould be -6 for you and your holoes.
PS: the smoke dodge allow a FTF against a template if you intercept the LoF, but if the holo doesn't share DDO, you loose the -6. I can't find a line saying markers have nothing. Camo and TO does have modifier. Mines are represented as markers exactly like the holoechoes, there marker posse the camoufllage rules event if they don't and they have the mimetism skill while being represented as a marker. PS : sorry for the double post,
Eh... I agree with this, but most of the others on this forum don't. As for the missile surprise attack, well, that's the highs and lows of cloak and dagger. Your opponent must have taken measures to discover which one is fake first, however, meaning the missile will either be lucky or you will have some hunch about your opponent knowing which model is Patroclos and you could thus make the choice of using the echoes as baits or simply dropping the charade.
We are also discussing it on the french forum (easier for me to explain things in mother language ;)). And the main probleme between the two sides are that : Some think markers have no profile so no comp/equipement, holoes are markers, so they have nothing. (your point follow this warcors no ?). The counterpoint is mainly that there is no written rules found yet declaring that markers have no comp or equipement by definition. This is supported by the mimetism of mine MARKERS, the fact that holoechoes copy as private information the movement of the mother figurine (if it had no profile it shouldn't be able to move). Not taking this points leads to some question about think being not really realistic and changing the way we played them for exemple : Patroclus holoes don't have the martial art rules so no stealth so entering a ZoC reveals the real dude. (light makes more noise then physical being ???) DDO modifier discussion... Hackable trait on Holy sepulchre is or not copied? We know that if you are impersonating a LI you have to state that this LI is hackable, but is it shared to the holoes? Movement capacity. No profile means no movement, and holoprojector is certainly not written as partially copying the profile, Either marker have a profile and they copy everything or they don't and just sit there. To sum up, this is the quick demonstration of why i believe they have ODD : If a marker can move it has a profile, and you can only move with your private information, so If a marker can move it has a private profile. If a marker can move as the mother figurine, it has copied his profile as private information. Is there a line saying "copy only a part of the profile" : NO So If a marker can move it has the complete private information profile as the mother figurine. So it has every comps and equipements(stealths, DDO, Hackable, etc...). Is there a rule book line saying : "under no circumstances, a marker is allowed to have equipment or special skills" : not to my knowing. The question for the DDo ends up being, can a holo marker moves ? i'm 100% sure of this one, as is all players in my area. Unlike other Special Ammunition, Smoke can be used to avoid enemy Attacks, but only if those Attacks require LoF and a Roll, and their LoF is blocked by the Smoke Circular Template being placed. It doesn't protect your budy from eating a misille but it is a valid dodge against a template if you intercept the LoF (not the ligne of explosion)
No it isn't. A Mine marker represents a physical item with a profile, which has the Mimetism Special Skill. It's completely unrelated to Holoechos. EDIT This is covered in the rules - 'when the trooper is inside the Hacking Area of an enemy'. My emphasis.
Ok perhaps the mine point is wrong but it was an exemple. It wasn't by far my best argument. Can you state me the point about markers never having comp or equipment ? You don't agree with my reasoning regarding movement ? and profile ?
Decoy Holoechos aren't troopers (except for triggering AROs), weapons or equipment. There's nothing in the rules that even infers that they actually have Equipment or Special Skills rather than publicly appearing to.
OK so tecnhically as it isn't also written that they can move as much as their mother figurine, they shouldn't be able to move. I just double checked and there is nothing about them being able to move. If they do not have any existences apart from an open information, they should be immobile decoy no ? How is their movement regulated otherwise, i can't find the ligne about the regulation of their movement (apart from providing only one aro, etc) If what you said is the true way infinity works with rules (you need something to say you can do something explicitly to have the right to use it (which is a very understandable and valid way to rule a game)) : if nothing say explicite that a decoy can do something it can't because it isn't a trooper. So whithout a line stating it allow him to move while taking the movement of the mother figurine, the holo isn't allowed to move at all. I understand it can nerf Holo L2 and above so hard that they are hardly worth it, but i'm trying to find the right way to play the rules, if they are wrong, that's corvus job. If we could with this discussion go to the end of the holo mess that, from all the existing topics, has been going on for a while.It could be a precedent to a FAQ or amendement of the rules by Corvus belli
@Arkille1 On their movement, wouldn't you say that this passage covers it: "The bearer of Holoprojector L2 and his holographic decoys act the same time, performing exactly the same Order declared." ?
Sorry for the absence ;) I'll respond : They perform the same order : ok but it doesn't explain what "is" the same order : As a holoechoe 1-you could technically declare a move and move 0 inch, triggering a mine if you are already in its range. the contrary to ijw thinking, holoprojector lvl 2+ is mainly a reactive turne ability (and over-priced:) ) 2-You could have to miic perferctly the movement of the main dude, what happens then if a holo crash into a wall ? it disapear ?? 3-You could declare a move, but you have no limited distance in your non existing profile : you move as fast as the light you are. You cross all the table triggering every mine and aro if you wish it and still end in coherency ^^. The wording exactly the same order must be clarified ! and to limit things in infinity : you give them a definite profile (i think).
The echo has to execute the same order as the main "unit". So if the order is Move + Move, all three markers move up to the maximum distance the troop that possess the Holoprojector can (so, Pat moves 6-4 or 15-10cm => his echoes can move up to that). The only limitations of that movement are that the echoes work as a Fireteam, so to speak: you need to perform coherency checks at the beginning and end of the order. So yes, it is perfectly possible to activate Patroclus, move him 0 (or a similarly nil distance), do the same with one of the echoes, and move the other 10 inches or 25cm all across the battlefield to clear a minefield, and Patroclus should not lose his Holoecho state because he is still in coherency with the second empty echo, while the echo sent to detonate mines would vanish even if there were none (because for example it was camo markers without mines under them, like 2 hardcases and 1 Foxtrot) because it was out of coherency with any of the other three markers. Heck, even if Patroclus was disguised as a Dactyl, for example, he could move 6 inches (15cm) without problems, of course the opponent would say something about that, but it would be a legal movement (if ill-advised, since you are revealing it's Patroclus) So the echoes move like "real" troops, and if they are going to go across a wall, they can move to a side (spending movement).
