I'm confident it will be faq'd eventually (but we had to ask first; which is what this thread is doing). Considering that when the rule first existed no troops had a way to deploy without placing the model or marker; writing "when deployed" and "when placed on the table" had the same effects on the existing units. It was basically synonymous. So i'm confident it will be faq'd to replace "when placed on the table" with "when deployed". Even more so when you consider, as you pointed out, that Holoecho states uses "Automatic when deployed" rather than "Automatic when placed"; it clearly meant the same thing when the rule first existed. PS - alternatively, they could switch to have both say "when placed" but it would be odd as most rule works on deployment, not on placement. And if you could automatically deploy within 8" when the bearer is placed then that would be crazy powerful.
That's my instinct too. @solkan also proposes it above. We'll see if anyone has any better ideas of how to reconcile the two wordings, but this is where I suspect we'll land. The question will then be, if you activate the state at deployment, are the two Holoechoes hidden, or just the real trooper? Aside: FFS @tox , why do you keep posting in threads you can't be bothered to read?
I love it when someone takes part of a sentence from the rulebook and deliberately ignores the rest because it doesn't matter to their argument. And what do we do with the «placing up to three Holoechoes on the game table» part when the deployment is done without putting anything on the table? ... do we ignore it happily?... or is it that we only use the part of the rulebook that interests us?
No, you simply follow the rules without improvising something different. How do you deploy a Holoecho model? You place 1 model + 2 Echos (or 3 Homolasked models) in coherency during the Deployment phase. How do you deploy a Hidden Deployment model? You record the position of the model and then yaddayaddayadda. How do you deploy a Hidden Deployment + Holoheco model? You record the position of the 1 model + 2 Echos (or 3 Homolasked models) in coherency during the Deployment phase and then yaddayaddayadda. Whi the hell should it be different? There is nothing in the rules that say otherwise...
i suppose once again you have to ask twice. Once for when using holprojector alone (1 model + 2 marker) and once more when using holomask (deploying 3 models) ?
The rule you quoted says that it is activated by placing three Holoechoes on the table (it doesn't say being able to place, no, it says categorically placing), it also says «respecting the general conditions of the Deployment rules.» and Hidden Deployment is not a general deployment rule, it is precisely an exception to those rules; if you don't place the Holoechoes on the table when deployed you are not activating the State, as easy as that.
That's also my interpretation of the holy texts of imprecision. Furthermore a player technically places a trooper on the table as soon as the player secretly marks down where the hidden deployed trooper will appear when activated or revealed by a sensor.
No, you technically deploy the troop when you mark its position, but you place it on the table at another time. Deploying the troop and placing it on the table can generally happen simultaneously, but there are exceptions in which both things happen at different times.
Which makes the situation actually clear. Bearer and Echos are put on the table when deployed even in the hidden deloyment state.
Incorrect. From the Hidden Deployment State: "Until a Trooper's Hidden Deployment State is cancelled, that Trooper is considered not to be on the game table at all." This is the source of the issue.
Miniatures are put on the table or they are not put on the table, but there is no option to put them on the table without putting them on the table.
Which changes nothing about the fact that exactly this trooper will apear on the exact spot and since the Echos are treated as troopers in terms of AROs and else they therefore must be treated as troopers when the decision is made during the deployment phase where they will appear. Yep, 100% true. But Holoechos are Markers not miniatures and Troopers don't need to be miniatures.
If we are going to get to that level of pointillism, how about: «The game elements are put on the table or they are not put on the table, but there is no option to put them on the table without putting them on the table.»¬¬ Maybe @Koni or @HellLois or @ijw want to stop by and clarify the matter, for my part I can contribute little more to the thread. Bye, happy games to all and good luck with the dice.
You're missing the point. The argument is that the Ayyar deploys in the Hidden Deployment state and not in the Holoecho state. Just the single Ayyar deploys in hiding, he doesn't have any echoes at that point, hidden or otherwise. During the game, at the point when the Hidden Deployment State is cancelled, the Ayyar is "placed on the table," triggering the activation clause of Holoprojector and causing the Ayyar to enter the Holoecho state for the first time, thus placing two echoes in coherency with him. Whether the argument is correct depends on whether Holoprojector or Holoecho is correct as to when the state is activated (at deployment vs. at placement on the table).
Please let me direct you towards a very similar skill that has additional rules. Compare Decoy; If the user is Deployed in Marker form instead of as a Model, for example in Camouflaged or Impersonation States, the player will place (CAMO) and (IMP) Markers on the table instead of the Decoy Markers. Yes. Decoy Impersonation is prepped and waiting for a unit... Yay... That aside. "the player will place [other] Markers on the table instead of Decoy Markers". Decoy works otherwise largely like Holoecho. When introduced Decoy had a bunch of copy pasta from Holoecho, and I think it still does. It just doesn't have NFB. As you can see, when they made Decoy they thought that the rules didn't work out of the box so they had to add a rule (and CB almost never write rules as pure clarifications) The very basics of the rules are that they are permissive. Unless the rules say you're allowed to do something within the boundary of the game being played you are not allowed to do it. Just because you Holoecho the user of Hidden Deployment, does not grant that user's equipment the use of Hidden Deployment. And a reminder, a Minelayer's mine also has to respect the the Deployment general conditions just like Holoechoes do.
Placed on the table isn't the same as deployed. They can't be used synonymously. The Ayyar is deployed during the deployment phase, and is placed on the table when he reveals. But Holoecho is about being deployed, not about being placed on the table. One allows you to deploy "without placing a Model or a Marker on the battlefield" and one allows you to deploy by "placing up to three Holoechoes on the game table". The rules is unfortunately lacking what to do and how to combine the two skills presently. But it certainly does not trigger when you activate your model and reveal it from Hidden Deployment.
The problem is the contradiction with Holoprojector, which is about being placed on the table: "This piece of Equipment allows its bearers to deploy in Holoecho State when they are placed on the table." The question is which is correct, what it says in Holoprojector or what it says in Holoecho State? They contradict each other as to when the skill is activated. Yes, exactly.
You're still abslute right. And I didn't even try to deny that. They can be put on the Table or not. But certain game elements can be deployed without being put on the table due to a rule that allows exactly this (and considered not to be deployed to avoid template weapon shenanigans and else). Therefore I used the term "technically put on the table" since these game elements can't change their position anymore, at least unless they got somehow activated and successfully performed skills allowing 4hem to change their position. And you're correct on the next level, someone from CB should've given the proper contextualisation for this particular rules interaction right at the time the update was released. Oh, I see it's about the use of the order free benefits of a deployment skill after the deployment phase that weren't used when deploying the trooper during said deployment phase. Nah, I didn't even think about this and I don't think that will be possible.
Ok. Throwing in my bit. I believe there's a difference between When Deployed and the Deployment Phase. Hidden Deployment, combat jump, and parachutist deploy after the deployment phase. Just like a Bashi shows on the table with echoes within 8in of each other. The difference between Hidden Deployment and Combat Jump/Para is that you write down where it's going to be before hand with HD, the other you can decide on the fly. So, you write down where the actual figure is, also where 1-2 echoes are going to be. When you reveal, all three will show. I know this seems powerful but it's not like he has a missile launcher. It's a one time per game thing. Also he's in the DZ. To me this feels like their intent.
