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Hidden lieutenant and LoL

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Belgrim, Dec 9, 2017.

  1. Belgrim

    Belgrim Well-Known Member

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    I remember there was a thread like this in the old forums but I cannot find it using the search function :angry:. So I decided to litter this new forum with already solved matters. Ahem...

    Let’s say I have a list that my lieutenant is a TO camo guy and I also have a Chain of Command guy. I put all my models in play and I leave the lieutenant for last, and then I decide that I want to place him in hidden deployment.
    Will my army enter Loss of Lieutenant state?
     
  2. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    In short: Yes, your army will be in LoL, unless you can make use of AROs to get your LT out of HD before your turn comes up.

    Chain of Command has a trigger style activation condition of your LT entering Null or Isolated.
    Meanwhile, Loss of Lieutenant has a trigger style activation condition if you don't have a non-Isolated, non-Null, LT that has been deployed.
    If your LT is in HD, it is not truly deployed (just like troopers in AD).
     
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  3. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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  4. daszul

    daszul Well-Known Member

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    It's an old thread, but the question arose anew in my meta:

    The argument is that a Lieutenant in Hidden Deployment does not trigger LoL because it is actually deployed, just not as model or marker - but still deployed - in contrast to AD troopers that are not deployed yet.

    Is there any FAQ or rule text that states explicitly that a lieutenant that is deployed hidden activates Loss of Lieutenant?
     
  5. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    See the Hidden Deployment Effects, bullet 5:
    • Until a trooper's Hidden Deployment state is canceled, that trooper is considered not to be on the game table at all.
    You don't have a Lieutenant.
     
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  6. Deus Kalsa

    Deus Kalsa New Member

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    Sry but "considered" means only threaded as...

    That doesn't mean the Lt was not deployed, as the rules saided he is (with out being represented by a marker or modell) .

    I can't see how considered as can trigger the not deployed condition.
     
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  7. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    Sorry, I don't understand.
     
  8. daszul

    daszul Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, "not being on the table" is no activation clause for LoL.

    Maybe RAI a Lieutenant deployed hidden should cause LoL,
    but RAW it is deplyoed, and thus does not trigger LoL (or CoC).
     
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  9. daszul

    daszul Well-Known Member

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    If the trooper is only considered not-to-be-on-the-game-table,
    he is not not-to-be-on-the-game-table,
    he actually is on the table, but just considered not to be.

    The rules for Hidden Deployment state that the the trooper is deployed,
    just without marker ot model, but still deployed.
     
  10. Deus Kalsa

    Deus Kalsa New Member

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    Sry if I was unclear.

    Considered as just means you can ignore the Models Position and Size for any in game actions like moving through, LoF , blast effects etc.

    But the model ist deployed it has an ZoC and can make AROs .
    This is the main difference to an Airborne Deployment model that was not deployed and has no possibility to make AROs subtil it hits the ground.
     
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  11. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    The trooper is off-table, for all purposes but AROs and Sensor. He is not 'actually on the table'.
     
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  12. Deus Kalsa

    Deus Kalsa New Member

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    This is right but as Hidden Deployment said he was deployed before . In a spezial way but deployed.

    And not being in the table is no valid trigger for LoL.
     
  13. daszul

    daszul Well-Known Member

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    The rules for Hidden Deployment state that the trooper got deployed.
    So I'd say that the trooper is on the table, just without model or marker...
     
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  14. WarHound

    WarHound Well-Known Member

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    … then you'd be wrong.
     
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  15. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    If the trooper is only "considered not deployed" that is still enough for Lieutenant skill to throw you into Loss of Lieutenant, because that means that when you read the rules and get to the sentence "or is not yet deployed on the game table," you must consider that the Lieutenant is not deployed on the game table.
     
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  16. Deus Kalsa

    Deus Kalsa New Member

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    Nowhere is noted that he is not deployed or considered to be not deployed at any time. Just there is no model or maker.

    The wording is clear it was deployed in the Deployment Phase.

    And later it will be considered as being not on the table , with some importend execptions, but this is still no valid LoL condition.

    If the wording was "considered as not deployed " than you are right this was a valid LoL condition.
    But you will also loss the ability to making AROs.
     
    #16 Deus Kalsa, Sep 12, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2019
  17. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Where in Hidden Deployment does it say the trooper is deployed on the table? Being deployed doesn't mean, on its own, that you're on the table. See below, with my added underline emphasis:

    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Lieutenant

    EFFECTS
     
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  18. Deus Kalsa

    Deus Kalsa New Member

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    First point under
    Effects
    • The Hidden Deployment state is a special form of deployment that allows the user to deploy during the Deployment Phase but place neither model nor Marker on the battlefield.

     
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  19. daszul

    daszul Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I am really irritated that so many of you claim that the lieutenant is not delpoyed, when you have followed a special deployment rule that even states that the trooper is deployed?

    @Mahtamori I see your point, but you can only deploy a trooper once,
    and your interpretation would allow to deploy twice,
    as hidden deployment _is_ a form of deployment.

    Maybe a solution would be to say Hidden Deployment is a form of delayed deployment?
    But still - if you can ARO or be revealed* with sensor, how can you not be deployed?

    And something odd as well:
    If you are considered to be in LoL if your lieutenant is deployed hidden, shouldn't CoC then trigger?
    But it does not, because your lieutenant is neither in a null state or isolated.
    Isn't that a hint that a hidden lieutenant does not trigger LoL?

    * This: A sensor can reveal you. You are on the table! Just not as model or marker...
     
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  20. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    To expand slightly on Mahtamori's post.

    From Lieutenant:
    From Hidden Deployment:
    • Until a trooper's Hidden Deployment state is canceled, that trooper is considered not to be on the game table at all.

    Loss of Lieutenant triggers if your LT is not 'on the game table'. Hidden Deployment troopers are not 'on the game table'.
     
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