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Hidden Deployment ARO revealing in the path of Movement

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Teslarod, May 20, 2021.

  1. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    What happens in N4 when a Ninja happens to reveal from Hidden Deployment in the path of a Trooper that has moved through it or onto its position in N4?

    Especially how does this work in regard to the All At Once rules?
    upload_2021-5-20_15-23-3.png
    VS
    upload_2021-5-20_15-25-27.png

    1. What happens in N4 if the Moving Trooper ends his Movement path on top of the HD Trooper's position after his ARO is declared? Which Trooper moves out of the way and are they Engaged?

    2. What happens in N4 if the Moving Trooper passes through the HD Trooper's position after his ARO is declared? Does the Movement retroactively get caught short as per the General Movement Rules or does the Moving Trooper finish his Movement as stated in 1.2 (since it happens before 2.0 Declaration of AROs that retroactively reveal the HD Trooper, but gets a nice and messy quantum interaction through the All At Once Rule placing him at the position for the entirety of the Order he revealed in).

    2.1 If you can end up not Engaged while passing through this way, can you still declare a CC Attack ARO with the HD trooper?
     
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  2. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Am I tracking this? I should be tracking this. We haven't had an answer to how to handle this in over 7 years, and it hasn't really hasn't changed much since N3...

    2.1 is easier to answer; no, this situation can not happen. You either enter base contact with an enemy and have your movement get cut short or you never enter base contact and the CC Attack skill will fail requirements on declaration.

    Edit:
    Added to the tracker, hope this finally gets an answer.
    I can see two functional workarounds in the meanwhile:
    1. The Hidden Deployment trooper is moved the least amount of distance necessary to to be placed in a legal position without being in contact with an enemy trooper.
    2. The Hidden Deployment trooper may not cancel Hidden Deployment unless their exact position is free.
     
    #2 Mahtamori, May 20, 2021
    Last edited: May 20, 2021
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  3. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    2.1 can happen depending on 2's answer.
    If Order Expenditure Sequence 1.2 overrules General Movement rules All At Once still lets you be in Silhouette Contact.
    It's just the "Movement stops" part from the General Movement Rules that doesn't happen in this case.

    You have the same problem with Superjumping into a position where you touch an enemy Silhouette on the edge of a roof then continue your Superjump back to ground level and end the Order not Engaged, but with satisfactory conditions for a CC Attack.
    (Another situation that's not ruled clearly atm)

    Question 2.1 is assuming that a situation like this might be possible just in case, so it's somewhat premature to make claims to rule it out before tackling Question 2.
     
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  4. Mogra

    Mogra Well-Known Member

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    Hidden deloyment troops are not in the table, as stated here https://infinitythewiki.com/Hidden_Deployment_State

    Also is not possible to enter in silhouette contact with a camo marker.

    I do not see possible that the reactive troop, also in hidden deployment, can aro cc attack anyhow.

    Cheers
     
  5. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    To clarify, I think that 2.1 can not happen unless you make additional holes in the rules to allow it to happen.

    Note that (Super-)Jumping to a point where you touch an enemy trooper (unless it is specifically and exactly in the spot where you land) is not allowed in N4. Partially because of how you have to make sure you reach your final destination before picking your landing spot and partially because a trooper always has to be fully supported by terrain and there is no mechanical way of falling in this edition, leading to a jump into contact with an enemy like you describe to be an illegal move (or the mathematical equivalent of intentionally dividing by 0).

    Keep in mind that the Hidden Deployment trooper doesn't necessarily have to have Camouflage and that the active trooper may want to CC Attack using their second Short Skill...
     
  6. Mogra

    Mogra Well-Known Member

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    I know that is possible, but I was referring to the ninja of the example.
    If the active trooper end the movement where the hidden one is, the hidden one can declare aro , but to declare a CC attack aro you must be in a engage state Wich you are not because you are not in the table at the moment of the Ora declaration.

    This is such a niche case, and also is affected by Ijw ruling regarding the need of being in silhouette contact when declaring the CC attack.
     
  7. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    Here's 2 examples of unclear situations that you claim don't exist:

    Trooper A is jumping sideways alongside a wall of a building to gain LOF on top. Completely normal use of SJ and legal.
    Same situation just that a trooper stands on the roof edge and I end up touching his Silhouette during the same jump.

    Trooper B is using the new sqeeze rules to pass a bridge half his base width.
    Same situation just that this time a TAG is standing on the ground level touching the same railless bridge from the side.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    Unlike BS Attack you totally can declare a preemptive CC Attack ARO to prepare for your opponent from Engaging you with his 2nd Short Skill.
    There's a new temporary ruling to prevent abusing a CC Attack+Move (in that Order) declaration. That's just how N4 rolls, speculative declarations in case you might fulfill requirements during resolution are a thing now (except for BS Attacks).

    But declaration is not the issue here, All At Once vs General Movement Rules vs Order Expenditure Sequence interaction is.
     
    #7 Teslarod, May 20, 2021
    Last edited: May 20, 2021
  8. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    Heh, nice. These definitely belong on the unanswered questions list. But I'll take a stab at trying to answer 2 and 2.1 anyway:

    The General Movement Rules state that "Once declared, Troopers always reach the end of their Movement, even if they enter a Null or Immobilized state due to successful enemy Attacks along the way."

    This doesn't directly address the question of what happens when a trooper pops out from hidden deployment in the path the trooper followed. However, the word "always" is sufficiently broad to suggest that the trooper's movement can't ever be retroactively cut short. So it seems to me that the trooper will still reach the end of his movement, even though the movement path now includes a point where he was in Sil contact with an enemy trooper.

    The Requirements for CC Attack include being in Sil contact with the target (not the Engaged state, just Sil contact). From the All At Once principle, we know that a moving trooper exists at all points on his movement throughout the order. So it seems to me that the hidden deployed trooper should be able to declare CC Attack, since the Requirement of being in Sil contact is met. Likewise, the active trooper should be able to declare CC Attack as his second short skill (regardless of what ARO the HD trooper declared).

    In other words, RAW I'd say the Ninja gets to smack the active trooper on his way past, even though they don't wind up in the Engaged state at the end of the order. Not sure it's intended or desireable, but those are different questions.

    I don't think it's a niche case at all. If it's allowed, then it would be very useful to deploy a Ninja in a spot you expect the opponent to walk through, bide your time, then slice them in half as they go by.

    (Also, from a cinematic perspective, I like it!)
     
  9. Mogra

    Mogra Well-Known Member

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    The example with the Tag, the tag is not in hidden deployment, is not the same case. A trooper in hidden deployment is not yet in the table as explained in the hidden deployment state.

    Second example, you can no longer declare a CC attack not being in silhouette contact because of Ijw ruling a month ago about it, nevertheless this can change with the new faqs release next week (hopefully).

    Cheers
     
    #9 Mogra, May 20, 2021
    Last edited: May 20, 2021
  10. Mogra

    Mogra Well-Known Member

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    Fully agree
     
  11. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    That's pretty much where I am with it.
    Problem is we're pitting "always" vs "automatically whenever" which both sound quite final to me.
    Currently I just think the rules don't have an answer either way and we're stuck in interaction limbo and could use a ruling (hence the post).

    Uhm, if you need it make the TAG a Cutter in HD.
    And then add my question, why and how is the Fusilier's movement impacted depending on if the enemy Cutter is in HD or not?

    Revealing a HD model puts it retroactively on the table for the entirety of the Order (All At Once).
    Not sure if you factored that in.
    So technically the Movement path taken in 1.2 is retroactively illegal because blocked by an enemy model that was "always there (retroactively)". That's the argument in favor of adhering the general Movement rules, moving the trooper back where is path is "blocked" and potentially voiding some AROs that were only made possible by the now retroactively cancelled Movement distance.
    However we already moved the trooper and declared a bunch of AROs (inclduding our HD trooper assuming the full Movement has already been locked in. A bit of a bind there.

    The IJW ruling would not apply in this case :D
    We meet all the requirements with our ARO.


    To make it clear my expected answer to all these questions is that the rules don't deal with it and we're left guessing which comes closest to the spirit of the rules.
    No hard feelings to anyone participating, I appreciate it.
     
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  12. Mogra

    Mogra Well-Known Member

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    I fully agree with it, we can just speculate what would happen. Nevertheless it would be good an official answer.

    Cheers
     
  13. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    That's a nice example for why this is a relevant question, but keep in mind that the Fusilier is not allowed to be placed at any point in their path where they can be CC Attacked by the TAG with the rules we have - so the question whether the Hidden Trooper can CC Attack due to being in silhouette contact answers itself (Engaged state is irrelevant to the situation)

    If the Fusilier is considered to be in base contact with the TAG, this means not only that they have to stop their movement immediately when they reach contact with the enemy, but that they also enter the Engaged state. This position would be illegal, however, so they are not allowed to stop there meaning they must back off further - hence the TAG will not be able to CC the Fusilier because the Fusilier is not able to exist in a game state that would allow a CC Attack.
    Yes, this creates a situation where the Fusilier oscillates between being in two positions and would not be a good outcome of an FAQ.

    If, on the other hand, the Fusilier is allowed to be placed at the final destination, they are also, by logical necessity, never counted as being in silhouette contact with the TAG. Not ever counting as being in silhouette contact with the TAG means the TAG can not CC Attack the Fusilier. Hence the situation also results in a no.
    The reading to support this outcome would probably involve the fact that a Hidden Deployment trooper is never considered to be on the table for the entire order the way dropping Camo is. Hence, even though the All At Once applies; at all points when the Fusilier is moving the TAG is not on the table. Yes, this has some twisted logic, but at least the game doesn't perpetually end in a logical loop.

    So the issue isn't so much that a situation can't be problematic, it is that the answer to 2.1 will in my mind always be the same - no, the HD trooper can't CC Attack the moving enemy.

    (I am having a small déjà vu about IJW posting something before he was payed to be the official Rules Guy about the logics of allowing a Ninja to respond with a CC Attack from Hidden Deployment, but I can't remember what he said and I can't find it. I'm just certain it's out there somewhere.)
     
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  14. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    I feel like it would be easier if not for this line in the GMR: "A Trooper's Movement ends automatically whenever he enters Silhouette contact with an enemy, even if the specified movement route is cut short as a result."

    It's a weird line, inasmuch as it implies that you can specify a movement route that touches an enemy model on the way by, but continues; then when you try to follow that route, you hit the enemy and stop. Which doesn't happen thanks to movement pre-measuring: instead, you check as many possible routes as you like, and either specify one that passes by the enemy without touching, or specify one that reaches the enemy and stops. You would never specify "I move to touch this guy and continue on," because you'd know it was impossible; you'd just specify "I move to touch this guy and stop" because you know that's what happens.

    That said, if we read the line literally then it would appear that the appearance of an HD trooper is actually the only scenario in which you would actually specify a movement route, only to have it cut short by entering Sil contact. Which, as @Teslarod points out, would put the line in direct contradiction with the other lines in the GMR about "always" reaching the end of your movement path.

    All of which is just to agree with everyone else that the answer is unclear :-)
     
  15. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Yup, great candidate for a FAQ.
     
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  16. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    So 2.1 "Yes, but only if the HD trooper isn't in the Camouflaged State."

    Camouflaged State says "You cannot enter Silhouette contact with an Enemy Camouflaged Marker." this is not "you may not" (ie are not permitted to) but rather "can not" (ie. it's an impossibility under the rules) - so in the case of a Camo Marker in HD you'd simultaneously occupy the same space but not be in S2S. Weird, but workable (its how it was for N3).

    Since the Camo Marker is static, they can't "move into S2S with an Enemy Trooper" to break their Marker state.

    However, the issue is that Camouflage is optional and HD can now allow you to hide a Model. In which case the Camouflage State wouldn't prevent S2S. This is a change since N3.

    How I'd resolve this:

    1. Alice Moves, finishing her movement as per normal.
    2. Bob declares CC Attack, revealing from HD (and Bob's player had noted they were "deployed" not in the Camouflaged State), attacking Alice at a specified point in her movement
    3. Alice declares her second Short Skill
    ...
    6. Was the requirement of CC met? Yes, Alice and Bob were S2S at one point during the Movement so All at Once allows this to be resolved simultaneously with all other actions.
    ...
    6.2. Alice and Bob are not in the Engaged state, because the Engaged state is a spatially defined state that only existed in the positions that Alice and Bob were S2S with each other.

    Aside, that seems like a very cool thing to have happen and the fact that it's limited to not being in a Marker state significantly reduces it happening inadvertently.
     
  17. LaughinGod

    LaughinGod Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    I had this issue 2 weeks ago where I landed my Ko Dali in the exact spot where Ninja was in HD. We didn't know how to rule it and reading this topic I am still not sure how were we supposed to play in that situation.
     
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  18. Titus

    Titus Varuna Beach Commando

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  19. Papa Bey

    Papa Bey Clueless Wonder. Still.

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    I thought it was decided that the quantum yo-yo was a pain in the ass, and bad. Why are we striving to bring it back?
     
  20. Titus

    Titus Varuna Beach Commando

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    And what is the quantum yo-yo? Never heard of that.

    For me it is simple. The hidden deployment is not on the table. So you can pass through its position with no problem. After that, the hidden deployment can declare an ARO if he wants. Not CC because they were never in contact, but he could declare Dodge. He won't move until the resolution towards the end of the order, so if the active troop is too far at the end, the ARO trop won't be able to engage if that was his intention.

    But not everyone sees it like that, so it would be nice some official word or FAQ.

    Things I heard/read lately that I don't think are in the rules:
    - The active troop bumps into the Hidden Deployment, so it has to stop moving and they are now engaged.
    - The hidden deployment was there all the time, so he can use CC combat. Even if the active troop kept moving all of the declared movement and they are not engaged at the end.
    - The active troop passes nearby, so the hidden deployment can ARO with Dodge and interrupt the active movement half way.

    I think all of these come from trying to apply the "Everything happens at the same time" concept. Which is confusing if you try to apply it to absolutely every step of the game, and it is not consistent with the rules on how do you play orders and AROs. There are mentions to movements and dodge in those rules that make it clear that the order is important, and you resolve each one when you have to.
     
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