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Hidden Deployment and Tactical Awareness

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Zewrath, Aug 30, 2019.

  1. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    The order. If you "save it for later" is the same. If you "don't add the trooper's order and later you get an order" then those are 2 different kind of orders. So there are differences in the translation
     
  2. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    I agree that there's a difference in the translation, but I must also agree with others in the interpretation of the English version of the rule (which brings it in line with the Spanish). They do not add their order to the order pool, that much is crystal clear, but that doesn't say the order is not generated. In fact, following the rest of the sentence with the understanding that the order is still generated is exactly what people are saying (and apparently the Spanish says, as well).
     
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  3. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    In spanish is the same order because is saved for later. In english the order is not generated and later it generates "an order", not "that order" or "its/his/her order", then it is not the same but a new one. English is not my mother tongue and also mine might be rusted, but I'm pretty sure that those two rules are not the same
     
  4. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    You are repeating that a lot but you have nothing else to really support it except the word « an » and a very far fetched interpretation of its meaning

    RAW is «As long as they remain in the Hidden Deployment state, troopers do not add their Order to the Order Pool, but instead generate an Order they may only use themselves. »

    So : do hidden deployement trooper generate an order : yes
    Is it a regular/irregular (depending on their training) order : yes
    Is there limitation : yes, the order is not added to the pool and can only be used by the HD trooper when it reveal itself
     
  5. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

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    Right so even if we ignore the HD part of Order Generation, can you tell yourself that the TA does not pose a RAW issue regarding its wording?
    Again, I think RAI that they get the TA-Order but I want the RAW clear, so it doesn't pose an issue in future tournaments.
     
  6. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    there is an issue with TA and HD, but it doesn't come from HD order generation, it come from TA bullet point saying you have to place the order marker near the mini (which you can't because the mini is not there)

    The question is what this mean :
    "you cannot place the marker next to the mini because the mini is not there but the skill still work (you place the marker when the mini is placed on the table)"
    "you cannot place the marker so the skill doesn't work"

    RAW does not answer that and we need clarification from CB (@HellLois ?)
     
  7. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    *places Irregular order token in Army case next to Cutter*

    Problem solved :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes:
     
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  8. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    I love that solution :+1:
     
  9. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    The problem is that I focus in that part because others are ignoring that part.

    Is it a regular/irregular (depending on their training) order : is not stated. Is a new different order. We can suppose is the same as its training, but not the same order that would be created at the beggining of the turn.
     
  10. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    If no specific rules is mentioned, you go back to the general rule (irregular/regular order, with the specification added here), you don't invent a new specific rules (new type of order)
     
  11. Sergej Faehrlich

    Sergej Faehrlich Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    Oh boy, we have obviously arrived at a point when reading the rules dissolves into bible exegesis...RAW might be not as easy as it seems.

    With any text, we have to read in the context of when they were written. In this case: at a point of time, when there was only one order that a model in HD could even generate. From a beginner's point of view, the rules for HD different greatly from how you handle your troops.

    The text obviously does not define that the order generated in HD is a "special kind of order", but rather explains how this works: you do not have to put in the order pool so your opponent cannot draw conclusions. Furthermore this order is restricted in its use.

    If we now take the words "an order", highlighting the AN, presuming that this only could result in a single order instead of two or more, this puts emphasis on a fact that the author at that point of time did not even see. Even seeing RAW as the basis for everything, I still see now way around RAI...at least at this point in time.

    To answer one of Zewarth's questions: as a TO...a trooper in HD would generate his tactical awareness order additonally and would be able to use it, suffering all restrictions given the rules for both generated orders...only using it for itself.

    Still: thank's for pointing out this reading!
     
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  12. HellLois

    HellLois What the Hell...Lois?
    CB Staff

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    I put it on the table to get an official answer.
     
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  13. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

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    Cheers man, I didn't mean to make it harder for you TO's, I just wanted a clear answer BEFORE any potential discussion errupts! :D
    I hope to see you soon in Germany!
     
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  14. Raising

    Raising Member

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    But the point is that not deploying a miniature using hidden deployment or AD you are still generating the orders. There is nothing preventing you from generating the orders. Only adding orders to the order pool is prevented.


    The hidden deployment only is making your order private information. There is no mechanism in the game that prevents your order from generating. Except for being in null state
    Chech the wiki

    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Start_of_the_Turn:_Tactical_Phase

    Under undeployed troops:

    "Undeployed Troops
    Troops that have yet to deploy on the table (for example, due to the Special Skill Airborne Deployment) do not contribute their Order to their Order Pool. Undeployed troops' Orders are Private Information, so their player can keep their Order Makers secret and out of sight of the opponent."
     
    #34 Raising, Sep 18, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2019
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