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Hidden Deployment and Tactical Awareness

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Zewrath, Aug 30, 2019.

  1. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

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    So how does this work?
    Let's assume that for some mysterious reason that the Sphinx or Cutter gets TA *wink* *wink* *nod* *nod*
    Can they actually generate the TA Order?
    Hidden Deployment states you do not generate any Order at all, while being Hidden and the only Order you generate is a special, unclassified, type of Order which you may use on that trooper itself. It's not an actual Order that is generated to the Order Pool, nor is it an Order generated by being Regular/Irregular.

    This is a problem because the rules for Tactical Awareness states that it's an Order that is generated in addition to the Regular/Irregular Order, furthermore, this special Order is placed next to the trooper during Order Count... who doesn't exist on the game table before the trooper is breaking hidden deployment.

    What's your take?
    What's RAI? What's RAW?

    @HellLois
     
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  2. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    in that supposed case, and if CB don't change the rules (they could be changed for this), they do not generate the order, but only if they use hidden deployment (they can deploy in marker, and then they will get that order

    but I don't see a problem there, those are two of the most powerful TAGs in the game and they don't need this supposed boost so having a little drawback is fine
     
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  3. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

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    The problem with that is that’s a subjective opinion you have (and for the record, I actually totally agree with you).
    Also, I’m attending some rather big events this upcoming season and really want this question to be answered or handled by TO’s BEFORE any tournaments start, so none gets new info sprung onto them in the middle of a game.
     
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  4. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    That’s not what Hidden Deployment actually says.
    • As long as they remain in the Hidden Deployment state, troopers do not add their Order to the Order Pool, but instead generate an Order they may only use themselves.
    The actual Orders are completely unchanged.
     
  5. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    Hidden deployement doesn't prevent the order from being generated, it prevent it from being added to the order pool and limit its use. Also nothing says the order is not regular. So I don't see anything in hidden deployement preventing the tactical awereness order from being generated



    The only problem I find is, as you say, what to do with the second bullet point of tactical awereness "During the Order Count step of the Player Turn, the player will place an Irregular Order Marker besides the trooper possessing this Special Skill."

    But this could easily go either way : you cannot place it so it's not generated OR you cannot place it so it will only appear when you leave hidden deployement

    I don't think RAW can allow us to decide which one is the correct answer
     
  6. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    well, tactical awareness "triggers" when the order pool is created, and when the hidden deployed appears, the order pool is not the moment. Also, the hidden deployed order is not the trooper normal order, but an special one created by the hidden deploy rule (more of an irregular).
     
  7. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    What are you basing this on? It’s the trooper’s normal Order, but not added to the Order Pool, and not usable by anyone else. If the trooper is Regular it’s still a Regular Order, and if the trooper is Irregular it’s still an Irregular Order.
     
  8. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

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    That IS actually what the Hidden Deployment says. You’re even quoting the part I am referring to.

    “They do not add their order to the order pool, INSTEAD they generate an Order they may only use themselves”

    Furthermore, this doesn’t answer the issue regarding the generation of the TA order during order count.
     
  9. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    Well, I base this in that the order cannot be used by anyone else, and that is not generated with all other orders. It doesn't matter if its creator is regular or irregular, because only that trooper can use it, so is more in the irregular zone than the regular one, but actually it is not defined.
     
  10. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    This is completely wrong.

    The trooper does generate an Order. The type of Order they generate is not changed at all, and is not a special unclassified type of Order. The Order is generated by the trooper being Regular/Irregular.

    The only bit that’s relevant is whether you can place the Tactical Awareness Irregular Order next to the trooper, which you obviously can’t because “Until a trooper's Hidden Deployment state is canceled, that trooper is considered not to be on the game table at all.”.
     
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  11. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I think you're overinterpretting things. The HD rules states "their order" (singular) which implicitly means their (regular) order per instructions characteristic.

    Since the tactical awareness order is a) never added to the pool, b) not the trooper's only order, and most importantly c) in addition to the normal order - hidden deployment doesn't accidentally remove this order because the rule can't possibly be referring to any extra orders.
     
  12. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    • As long as they remain in the Hidden Deployment state, troopers do not add their Order to the Order Pool, but instead generate an Order they may only use themselves.
    They do not add their order, they generate an order. This "an onrder" is different than "their order" or "that order".
     
  13. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

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    Right we disagree on semantics then, mostly because what you’re saying is an extrapolation, rather than something that is clearly written in the manner you claim.
    However, this still doesn’t answer the question regarding the Tactical Awareness, because as you agree we can’t place an order next to a model that isn’t on the table.
     
  14. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

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    How are you placing the order during order count?
     
  15. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    We agree on this, but there is a big step from "you cannot place the marker next to the mini because the mini is not there" and "you cannot place the marker so the skill doesn't work"

    First part is RAW, second isn't
     
  16. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

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    I don’t even agree with what you and Ian say regarding Order generation, because it’s an extrapolation. I agree that what you’re extrapolating seems more intuitive but it isn’t grounded in RAW.
    However you and I both agree that RAW doesn’t tell us anything regarding TA, and I’m not actually here to argue either for or against. I’m here to raise the issue that this isn’t clear and I want this in the upcoming FAQ, mostly because it can come up in tournaments and I want it to be clarified before we have an entire season with this buff.
     
  17. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    This isn't something I have contemplated nor addressed, but I hope CB will for N4 so that they don't unnecessarily prevent interesting unit designs.
     
  18. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    To me it is clear that raw, the order generated when appearing the hidden deployed trooper, and the order generated when at the order pool are different kind of orders, and because of that, TA should not trigger the extra order (the moment of that to happen had long passed). For it to work, one of the rules should be changed.
     
  19. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    Sorry for the double post, but this could be a translation problem. In the spanish version regarding the hidden deployed trooper order, is "saved for later use", so in spanish is the same
     
  20. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

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    What is The same? Sorry, didn’t quite catch that.