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Help with Onyx vs Haqq

Discussion in 'Combined Army' started by SPYNTBG, Apr 16, 2018.

  1. SPYNTBG

    SPYNTBG New Member

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    Okay, so my friend (and only opponent) took a shine on Haqq for their really nice models, and now has both USAriadna and Haqqislam. I've already got some advice on beating USAriadna (and been informed it's an uphill battle) and now that I'm playing against Haqq, I'm finding that they seem to counter me quite well.

    Since I'm playing Onyx, the vast majority of my models are REMs, with 1-2 hackers aswell (We're only playing 200pts). I also have taken a TAG twice to try them out and each time they've severely underperformed.

    First issue is in Lieutenants. My Lt. is always very obvious, as I have very few options and most things in a list just can't be my Lt. Plus side is that I get to use the Lt Order, but downside is that he's got a bullseye on his head turn one. Meanwhile I have absolutely no idea who the enemy Lt is, nor any way of knowing (He can have a Holoprojector Lt).

    Next issue is Muttawiahs. These guys are 5pts, Irregular, Extremely Impetuous with devastating and accurate close ranged weaponry and smoke grenades to cover their advance. One E/Marat shuts down REMs just too well, even with my high BTS of 6 there's a 50% chance of being Isolated and Immobilized. Alternatively, he can sit him out of LoS and do the same thing without needing LoS within his ZoC. How are these guys considered fair? Much too good for minimal investment, and an auto-include by far. Always takes 2-4 of them.
    He does point out that I get access to Pretas (In regular CA) and tells me they are the better unit and not to complain, but a Preta is simply a chain rifle on a faster delivery system and leagues worse than a Mutt.

    So how do I beat these guys effectively? Other than staying away from REMs (basically my whole faction) or using MSV2 guys to watch for Muttawiahs on their smokey approach (and likely get shot by something else because MAAKREPS have no defensive tech other than a Automedkit.

    Thanks for your guys help :)
     
  2. paraelix

    paraelix Well-Known Member

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    Mutts are gross. They are one of the top most hated units in the game (by people not using them). Tohaa Symbio-mates sit next to them on this list. Also, Gakis/Pretas are NOT better than Mutts.

    For Lt, I would suggest trying a few games with the 16pt Nexus Lt just sitting on a building, prone and in cover. That way he will be safe. Another alternative is using the Nexus Hacker Lt and dropping a Nullifier in your turn. That way you can walk out of it to actively hack, and then retire inside the null bubble for your opponent's turn so that your Lt can't be hacked.

    Regarding Isolation and E/M - try running some Rodoks. Morats, by virtue of the Morat rule being Religious + Veteran L1, are completely immune to Isolation. Jammers and E/M do nothing to Rodoks. E/M will still, however, Immobilise Suryats due to them being Heavy Infantry.

    MSV options to counter Mutts are limited. I, personally, am not really a fan of Maakreps (or Sygmaa in general, atm). So the best way to act defensively is to stack the odds in your favour. Use a Q-drone for AROs, create a defensive link of Unidrons/Rodoks, or another kind of REM with support-ware - stacking more dice in your favour vs the Mutts chucking a single dice for FtF smoke swings the likelihood of success more in your favour.
     
  3. Leviathan

    Leviathan Hungry Caliban

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    If you can bait Mutts in a certain direction by expoiting the impetuous rules, that can help with leading them into spots where you'll get a decent ARO in, too.
     
  4. SPYNTBG

    SPYNTBG New Member

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    Awesome, thanks!
    I hadn't noticed that Morats are immune to Isolation, only that they are okay with LoL (bad situation anyway) and don't fall back. I've been meaning to try out Rodoks and already know I love Suryats so that's good news!

    I don't understand what you mean by stacking odds in my favor, as the Mutt throws a smoke unopposed, then walks into the smoke to repeat until he's arrived at his destination. There's been no situation where I've actually been able to get a shot off because they've got 100% uptime on their smoke- unless that's not right.
     
  5. paraelix

    paraelix Well-Known Member

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    For the Mutt to throw smoke, it needs LoF to the point it is throwing to (even with the targetless trait) or it becomes a Speculative Shot. It cannot throw down smoke, walk into smoke, then throw more smoke - unless they are doing Spec Shots with a -6 modifier... Which completely trashes the order effectiveness.

    As another option - try taking a Noctifer/Malignos in hidden deployment. This model should be able to catch them out with an ARO when they are in the open and weren't expecting to need a smoke template - forcing a FtF.
     
  6. paraelix

    paraelix Well-Known Member

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    With only Ph12. A Mutt throwing smoke speculatively only has a 45% chance to land it - Ph12 +3 for range -6 for Speculative = 9 or less on one dice.

    Also, ensure that your opponent is playing their order correctly - if they throw smoke and move into the smoke with the same order, it is all simultaneous and you will still get to ARO against the model if it enters your LoF.
     
  7. SPYNTBG

    SPYNTBG New Member

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    Ah, okay. He has been doing Spec fire to throw them down from inside smoke, but not every time. When he does that, I was informed I could not ARO because I had no LoS to his Mutt because there was smoke in the way- good to know I can still shoot him!
     
  8. paraelix

    paraelix Well-Known Member

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    I think you're misunderstanding - you cannot ARO to speculative fire from inside of smoke as there is no LoF. But if he performs a move/throw smoke and the path of movement enters your LoF then it will be FtF with your attacks.

    If he is opting to Speculative Fire, then he has less than 50% chance to actually get the smoke... So they are being inefficient and lowering the odds of getting across the table with enough orders to be relevant. Added to that, Spec Fire is a long skill... So it's a whole order just to throw it. Then another order to move. Then another order to Spec Fire again. Very inefficient ;)
     
  9. SPYNTBG

    SPYNTBG New Member

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    I see, my opponent was doing Spec fire as a short skill (first skill) then moving into where I would have had LoS but the newly thrown smoke blocked it. I see how inefficient that would be, we had been playing that wrong too.
    Thanks for clearing that up, it means there's actually a lot more that I can do to an advancing Mutt making a beeline through open ground without needing MSV2, thanks!
     
  10. paraelix

    paraelix Well-Known Member

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    "I see, my opponent was doing Spec fire as a short skill (first skill) then moving into where I would have had LoS but the newly thrown smoke blocked it."

    Yeah, this is the part that catches people. The whole order is simultaneous. I find it best to get in the habit of declaring the move/idle part first, then declaring the active skill (shoot, hack, cc, etc) as the second part - keeps it all clear.
     
    Hecaton likes this.
  11. Gwaernydd

    Gwaernydd Well-Known Member

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    not to mention that spec fire is an entire order, so no no to walking after it
    edit: oh i see it was already mentioned, dont mind me then
     
  12. HardDisk

    HardDisk Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    I'm a Haqq and Onyx player, but never played against haqq with Onyx, only against Onyx with haqq.
    Onyx can have some bad time against Haqq but can shine too.

    Haqq normally goes for speed-bumpers units while doing the mission, but if its a kill mission, can have some troubles, haqq goes for changes - cheap units killing expensive ones. But, if you can protect your rambos, you can deal a lot of pain.

    Vs. mutts: like others said, try to kill they with the impetuous, leading they to an open area taking AROs, using veterans (like morat units) that doesnt bother with isolation or shoot outside 10,5" (no templates or Jammer). they're a speed-bumper that you will need to deal if you and to advance mid field.try spreeding shoots if you need, they're really easy to kill when you hit they (bonus if you use shock ammo).

    Don't bother trying to kill the Lt, probably your friend will have a farzan with CoC, but if you want, you can open the infinity army APP and search for Lt skill to have some ideas, to find Holo1 guys (hafzas) you must take care, if they are "holoechoing" one irregular dude the courtesy list will show one less irregular and one more regular that it should have, if your friend puts an unit at a strange place, be careful for traps, and if there's a unit that is good at the active turn and your friend doesn't use orders on him that's strange too and there's a chance to be a holo1.

    And don't be afraid to use REMs, they will spend orders if they want to hacking it, leave a hacker near and now Onyx have a nice repeater cover (with Kerr-Nau and Bit&Kiss), leave some repeaters mid field to deal with hackers, and if they don't kill your REMs, use Dr Worm!
     
    Golem2God likes this.
  13. Styx

    Styx Cat.IE~~

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    Rodoks + Noctifer LT. Best option to deal against haqq if you need go playing with infantry units.

    Some boarding shootguns on core bonus + mines and HMG or ML options and a good LT hidding on TO marker covered with ikadrons and Rodoks mines. At your selection from Kerr-Nau on core or Bit, they are a great cover from Stealth profiles with their positionable repeaters.
     
  14. DaRedOne

    DaRedOne Morat Warrior Philosopher
    Warcor

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    Wellcome to the CA, Mate! Good luck fighting them smelly humans!

    As has been mentioned before, try the Nexus Lt hacker for a spin. Put him out of a link, prone on a roof and let him sit there for the whole game handing out buffs to your Unidrons on the link team.

    I also second the 'don't try to kill his Lt' notion above. Really, just kill his everything else. He's playing a mostly 1 wound army and you can use your Nexus to give Marksmanship lvl 2 to your unidrons or Q-Drones. get a spitfire on the Unidrons or use the Q-drone's HMG and go hunting for his stuff on your turn! Remember that marksmanship adds shock damage to the weapons, which means his muttaw'ia can't go dogged and neither can anything else that has dogged or No Wound incapacitation.

    Pardon my morat, but in my opinion the Maakrep can get fucked. I have seen people use them well, but I am not on their group, so here's how I deal with mutts:

    1 - Shock ammo up their asses. As I mentioned before, you can buff your rems with assisted fire, at which point a single burst from any weapon should drop them dead, and you can do so well away from their Jammer range.

    2 - Martial arts. You have Umbras, either the Legate with the HD+ to go into marker state or just the Samaritan to go monster mode. With stealth, the mutts can't aro if you move out of their line of sight, and if you come at them from behind they can only dodge or CC as aro, and either option means they're getting shanked by your CC monster. This is a little bit more order intensive, but it works too, and it isn't like your Samaritan eating some wounds off a mutt is a bad thing.

    Don't despair, mate. Nothing in this game is unbeatable. Good luck!
     
  15. HardDisk

    HardDisk Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    Dont forget, mutts have knifes, if you have some poor luck your Samaritan can bite the dust, but most times your Samaritan can eat some brains.
     
  16. DaRedOne

    DaRedOne Morat Warrior Philosopher
    Warcor

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    At CC 24+3 from protheion the Mutt only wins the CC roll if it crits or the Samaritan rolls lower than 7
     
  17. Styx

    Styx Cat.IE~~

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    Care on this:


    Stealth, Sixth Sense and Deployable Equipment

    This Special Skill is not effective against troopers with the Sixth Sense Special Skill nor, for obvious reasons, against Deployable Weapons or Equipment (Mines, E/Maulers...).


    [​IMG] Haqqislam
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]1 [​IMG]2 [​IMG]1
    [​IMG] HUNZAKUT (Forward Observer, Deployable Repeater) Rifle + Light Shotgun, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 18)
    [​IMG] MUTTAWI'AH Chain Rifle, E/Marat, Jammer, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    [​IMG] LEILA SHARIF Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Shock Marksman Rifle, D-Charges / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0 | 20)

    0 SWC | 43 Points

    Open in Infinity Army
    This ppl can reverse your plan using a mutawwa for a bait, 1 positionable repeater on marker state, into ZC of that mutawwa, he can ARO you with mine (if they have LoV) then... any hacker on the enemy list can ARO you, if you are off/on cybermask, bcs you got Stealth (marker and skill), just they can wait for your end of action.
     
  18. HardDisk

    HardDisk Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    It happens... my mutts already killed units with good CC trying to get a easy kill

    I dont understand the combo, can you explaing a lil further please?
     
  19. Styx

    Styx Cat.IE~~

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    Stealth skill dosen't apply on sixt sense and positionable equipment, mines, E/maulers and positionable repeaters. So, Hunzakut's have a positionable repeater as him, and this, he can ARO anything crossing into their ZC and all of your hacker's list too, you can ARO with the Hunzakut + hackers, and if the enemy are a marker you can delay your ARO, bcs all markers have Stealth and some CCskills profiles, except on holoecos.

    On this; you can use a Mutawwa for a bait into ZC of Hunzakut, so, you can wait in your reactive turn for that on this example.
     
  20. Leviathan

    Leviathan Hungry Caliban

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    it refers to AROs from deployables (mines, perimeter weapons, etc), not AROs from hackers using the expanded hacking area
     
    paraelix likes this.