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Help with Onyx vs. ASS?

Discussion in 'Combined Army' started by silvertongue, Mar 28, 2018.

  1. Teslarod

    Teslarod Trebuchet Enthusiast

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    @silvertongue you'll get there. That ASS list is hardly maxed out, could be worse. So don't worry you'll get there with practice.

    Achilles is always hard to deal with, but he has his weakpoints. Going to second @yojamesbo 's recommendation for a Sphinx. It's one of the better means to get rid him and Myrmidions in general. Once you get close enough to use the dual Flamethrowers he has to think twice about his AROs.

    So what can he do?
    1. If Achilles declares BS Attack, take the hit and put double HFT on him - this permanently gets rid of his ODD.
    2. If you "accidentially" got to close and he declares Engage, use a 2nd Move to drag him up a wall. He is stuck there and can't use anything but Climb there so is at the mercy of your EXP CCW.
    3. His best Option is a Dodge and you're a Sphinx. He shouldn't have Cover so his 15 against your 4 dice on 11 with a DAM15 Spitfire should get it done in a couple Orders.

    Against Myrmidions they face the same problem.
    Chainrifle/Smoke/BS Attack? You can take the hit and have B2 Flamethrowers.
    Engage? You can drag them up a wall.
    So they'll pretty much have to Dodge, which ultimately only delays your success.

    Other options are a Samaritan AHD hacking from outside LOF and then safely chopping him into slices with his Vorpal CCW & CC24 vs a Reset or simply outranging him with a capable HMG (buffed Q-Drone, Maakrep, Rodok), Plasma Sniper or Overdron HRMC.
    My favourite solution for Achilles is playing Ping Pong with him. Drop a Fractaa behind and 2 keep two other gunners in his front. Whoever is in his back arc gets a free volley and if he turns you simply continue whith whoever he isn't facing.

    Final advice is just that ASS seem hard to deal with at first (and probably are if you're not aware of all your tools), but everything is manageble or even short lived in Infinity when dealt with properly.
     
    #21 Teslarod, Mar 30, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2018
  2. silvertongue

    silvertongue Hacker retórico

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    OK folks. I played against him again today.

    His list was pretty much the same, although instead of Machaon he brought Patroklos.

    I included a Sphynx, dropping the Unidron ML, Fraacta and Maakrep. I also included an Ikadron.


    Aaaaand... Lost again. BUT! This time it was much more balanced, managed to Isolate Achilles and have him glued. Also out-shot Atalanta with the Unidron like you told me (it was immensely satisfactory), but sadly not before she killed my Umbra due to a deployment fuck-up on my part.

    The thing is... I bloody hate Myrmidons. I don't see their weakness, I'm sure they have one, but I can't see it. They Dodge at their 13 PH, which made my Sphynx's flamethrowers largely irrelevant (only got to fire them once, killing one, before they got to HtH). They have their stupid ODD. High HtH prowess with MA 4 to top it off. And for just 16 points? Seriously? Are these guys balanced? Am I just missing something glaringly obvious that can provide an edge against them? And how on Earth do people that play ASS include anything other than Myrmidons in their lists? These guys are really stupidly undercosted for what they do.

    So yeah, not as frustrating as the other time, did way better, but still... Sigh...
     
  3. Psybilliah

    Psybilliah Member

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    I feel ya!
    Great job on Achilles, I always try to strip his ordro pool or isolate him . My blitzens have really helped with that.
    If you feel you are struggling with phalanx and face them often, it may be worth using the makraap until you get more comfortable facing them.
    Keep up with the templates. Try some plasma links as suggested to help get a few shots off brfobe cc.
    Also, the characters are the key in phalanx. Try to take them out on your terms.
    They are light on soecilissp and have no marker state units/infiltration (except thras), so enjoy that you can see everything
     
  4. DaRedOne

    DaRedOne Morat Warrior Philosopher
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    Let's see... 16 points for a warband is THE most expensive warband in the game, and even as line infantry they're on the stupidly expensive side. They have no long range weapons aside from special characters, and that's only Phoenix' admitedly way too good HRL. PH13 isn't even good for a Warband, merely average (Compare to daturazi or any ariadna warband) and then there's the fact they're 1 wound models.

    The problem is that ODD forces you to think differently, and you're playing an army that just wants to hammer them down with shooting and they're made to survive being hammered with anything but MSV2 troops, which OCF only has 1 and it's not even a good one.

    When using a flamethrower, especially the sphinx, remember to properly follow the Order structure. Try to do this:

    -> Sphinx moves around a corner, preferably with LOF to a Myrmidon out of cover.
    -> Myrmidon declares ARO.
    -> If they shoot back, Sphinx uses flamer;
    -> If they dodge, Sphinx uses the spitfire;

    in this situation, you either hit them with 4 dice on 11 vs 1 on 13, or autohit with the flamer. In any way, this should help get a few more wounds with the sphinx on them. I particularly wouldn't go for the sphinx on this fight, though.

    [​IMG] Onyx Contact Force
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]10
    [​IMG] UMBRA SAMARITAN (EI Assault Hacking Device. UPGRADE: Goodnight) Plasma Carbine, Flash Pulse / Pistol, Vorpal CC Weapon. (0.5 | 43)
    [​IMG] MED-TECH OBSIDON MEDCHANOID Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 23)
    [​IMG] SLAVE DRONE Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
    [​IMG] UNIDRON (Forward Observer) Plasma Carbine / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0 | 15)
    [​IMG] UNIDRON (Forward Observer) Plasma Carbine / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0 | 15)
    [​IMG] UNIDRON Plasma Sniper Rifle / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (1.5 | 24)
    [​IMG] UNIDRON Spitfire / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (1 | 18)
    [​IMG] UNIDRON K1 Combi Rifle + 1 TinBot A (Deflector L1) / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0.5 | 17)
    [​IMG] OVERDRON 2 Heavy Rocket Launchers / . (2 | 57)
    [​IMG] [​IMG] STALDRON Flash Pulse / Knife. (0 | 0)
    [​IMG] ÍMETRON . (0 | 4)
    [​IMG] ÍMETRON . (0 | 4)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]5
    [​IMG] KERR-NAU (UPGRADE: White Noise) Plasma Rifle + Pitcher, D-Charges / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0 | 27)
    [​IMG] NEXUS Lieutenant Hacker (EI Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Nullifier / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 24)
    [​IMG] IKADRON (Baggage, Repeater) 2 Light Flamethrowers, Flash Pulse / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0 | 9)
    [​IMG] IKADRON (Baggage, Repeater) 2 Light Flamethrowers, Flash Pulse / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0 | 9)
    [​IMG] R-DRONE Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)

    6 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    If I were to use an OCF list against ASS, I'd go for that one. Explanations:

    Overdron moves in first and takes out MSV snipers with his Albedo. Then takes a nasty ARO position for the ocasional smack with that big fire template. Kerr-Nau sets up a repeater network to bottleneck the fireteams, and if they come close, you get to ARO against any hackers or HI they might have (like Ajax, Hector or GloryBoy). Don't forget to give Assisted Fire to the Unidrons with the Nexus Lieutenant, and keep the lieutenant as far away from LOS as possible too!

    The samaritan is the troubleshooter. He shouldn't move out until snipers are dealt with, but after that he can go nuts, just don't CC Achiles (or do, if you manage to buff up to something stupid like 5 wounds from protheion)

    All in all, dealing with ODD is a pain in the ass, but it's doable. Don't despair, mate!
     
    #24 DaRedOne, Apr 1, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2018
    silvertongue likes this.
  5. Gwaernydd

    Gwaernydd Well-Known Member

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    that list is beautyful :)
    one point tho, bear in mind that protheion caps at +2 W (still, 3W+Nwi is pretty nice if you plan to whoop homerid ass)
     
  6. silvertongue

    silvertongue Hacker retórico

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    Hm, that's an interesting list... Plus I have an excuse to use an Overdron and a Samaritan, which is cool! Thanks, I will try it :)
     
  7. D6Damager

    D6Damager Active Member

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    How does he follow you up a wall without using climb himself?
     
  8. Teslarod

    Teslarod Trebuchet Enthusiast

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    This may be frowned upon to use against new players but a perfectly legal rule interaction for all purposes in ITS.

    The important parts here are that a Climbing trooper is "standing" on the wall while he is climbing it.
    If a model succeeds at engaging an enemy trooper, the Player who controls the nowengaged enemy trooper gets to place the engaging Trooper anywhere in BTB with his model.
    The engaging Trooper's base (not his Silhouette) has to be placed in contact to the engaged Trooper's base - thus usually can be placed on the same wall.
    • If the Roll is successful, then the user Dodges all Attacks against him and moves into base to base contact with his target at the final location previously declared.
    • However, when entering base to base contact, the active trooper decides where around its base to place the reactive trooper.
    During a Climb a Trooper without Climbing Plus can only Declare Climb, which can't be used as ARO or in FTF.
    • As long as the user is holding on to a vertical surface, he cannot declare any Skills other than Climb.
    And now i.e. Achilles using Engage against a Sphinx is stuck on a wall and can only declare Climb - which makes any Attack against him a Normal Roll.
     
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  9. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    You can also just CC Attack vs. Engage.
     
  10. Leviathan

    Leviathan Hungry Caliban

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    Fire. Lots of fire.
     
  11. paraelix

    paraelix Well-Known Member

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    You know that Warbands includes stuff like Dog Warriors and William Wallace, yeah? :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

    Oh, and all the named ASS dudes...
     
  12. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    @paraelix I wouldn't say good ol' Billy counts. Dog Warriors I'll give you.
     
  13. DaRedOne

    DaRedOne Morat Warrior Philosopher
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    I consider the named ASS dudes to be just pumped up versions of Myrmidons, in my post I even mentioned that Phoenix is the only way to give them longe range guns. So that all only adds up to their cost even more.

    I'll give you dog warriors and their variants, although consider this:

    A Cameronian (the cheapest of the dog warriors) is 23 points for a beast that moves 6-4, drops smoke on 19s, has super jump and total immunity and 2 wounds. For only 7 points more than a Myrmidon. Both of them get screwed up by MSV, but the Cameronian can easily sit on a 16-20 order army so when he buys the farm he makes no difference at all.

    Realistically, myrmidons are expensive as balls for their function, and so if you kill one you make a much bigger dent in your opponent's army than even killing a more expensive Cameronian would, because of the other dudes around him. I think an ASS list will struggle to break 14 orders, while an Ariadna list can do that and still pack nasty tricks like surprise shotting HMGs with MMS2.

    The point being: Myrmidons aren't as strong as they look. They're, to borrow a term from another community, 'Pubstompers' they force you to rethink your strategies and learn something that you might not be using in the game so much (Flanking, correct order structure, correct ARO declaration, deployment, target priority, a lot of stuff). But once you do that, they become manageable and maybe even easy to beat.
     
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  14. HardDisk

    HardDisk Well-Known Member
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    This!

    Myrmidons can be a pain in the ass, but after some games against, you learn how to deal with it.
    Templates are good for it, and Onyx have Ikadrons with 2 light flamers for 9 pts (and good move to get there), besides it, a Unidron buffed link can make the suffer too with plasma weapons and ML templates.

    Remember that ASS have no cheap order monkeys besides Netrods and REMs, even 1 myrm down is a great loss.

    EDIT: Oh, and if you dominate the long range lines is even harder for them to move safely
     
  15. Obeisance

    Obeisance Well-Known Member

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    I lost 0-9 in a tournament today, Onyx vs SP.

    Link continually cut pies for kills.
    Achilles rampaged down a flank.

    Lost half my army top of 1. ODD really shifts in thier favour.
     
  16. DaRedOne

    DaRedOne Morat Warrior Philosopher
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    Funilly enough, I won 7-2 against SP today. But I was playing Bakunin and had a 5 woman Riot Grrl team, so ODD wasn't such a big deal.

    I also play mostly MAF, which gets either linked MSV or just smoke and DTWs.
     
  17. paraelix

    paraelix Well-Known Member

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    Yeh... I look at the cost diff between Datz and Myrms and I'd be totally happy to shell a few more points for ODD over Mimetism.
     
  18. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Exile really helps. Consider the E-Drone.
     
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  19. Leviathan

    Leviathan Hungry Caliban

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    E-Drone is currently the only source of this program in the game, so exploit the hell out of this advantage while we still have it. :)

    (failing that, an Overdron's HRL pie-plates are also effective).
     
  20. Obeisance

    Obeisance Well-Known Member

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    I think my anti-Achillies tech is going to have to be popping a Malignos out of hidden and immobilising him.

    Hacking area is actually quite a large diameter bubble.
     
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