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Help me not to do something stupid

Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by Make PanO Great Again :P, Apr 26, 2018.

  1. Make PanO Great Again :P

    Make PanO Great Again :P Varuna, with the deadliest reptiles in the sphere

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    Hello everyone, im here wanting all of you to stop me from taking a Cutter Lt. (AKA: something stupid)
    The missions the list is designed to are Deadly Dance and Firefight
    I don´t expect my sad Fusilier Lt. to survive with all the oniwabans, ninjas and speculative fire is in fashion again.

    So an extra order in the Cutter comes really useful, specially for the Dance where he has to move, and token state is good to avoid LOL in firefight...... he is going to be the main focus of attacks anyway, yea ?

    If i go first there is no much of a problem, deploy him as reserve in token state and everyone´s happy (or at least the Lt. appeared to do his duty).
    If i go second stuff gets trickier...... he has to reveal himself with an ARO at some point, be a shot or idle to stay in token.

    So on i went to try this new folly and had 2 games with it, deciding that both i was going to go second since it was in that first round the idea will be made or break.

    First game was against JSA, i looked with patience as a Oniwaban rampaged on my dz flank killing the Machinist, a warcore and a Fugazzi, bur revealed in shooting ARO against the O-yoroi when there where not sufficient orders for the Oni to reach me.
    It was a good test because also both zones were on my opponent side of the table, so the Lt. order was used and was necessary. (my Hexa KHD failed a normal 16+ check TWICE!! ).
    Also realize that except for 2+ story buildings the tags can see each other with easy.

    Second game was against ISS 20 orders, 8 KuangShi, LuDuan, RuiShi, Kanren, Celestial smoke throwers and WuMing+Zanying link with HRL and ML.
    This time deployed so to get the link exposed from the side when they move up.
    Again waited patiently for the RuiShi to kill both my ARO pieces (someone have to shoot the political zombies) and deplete the order pool cleaning the path for the link. The link move up, the Cutter and the Croc shot, i was happy.

    The thing is....... this cant keep working, please help me to come out of this fools errand.
     
  2. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant
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    Interesting.

    I'm a big fan of surprising your local meta with list innovations, and I suspect that the Cutter would qualify. Your opponents will probably have a good bag of anti-TAG tricks for Deadly Dance, but the truth is that most players just aren't accustomed to fighting huge TO Camo TAGs right now. They're not as popular as they used to be, and obviously Varuna isn't released yet.

    My suggestion is to get comfortable with the list and use it for the upcoming event before your opponents have adapted to this playstyle. Surprising people with units they don't see very often is a perfectly acceptable way to get an advantage in a tournament.
     
  3. Make PanO Great Again :P

    Make PanO Great Again :P Varuna, with the deadliest reptiles in the sphere

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    I dont think is so much the new tag thing (after all the Cutter is my GO TO TAG) but the real difference is in the way it force me to use it.
    When you put all your eggs into one basket, the normal thing is to hide the basket as much as you can. But in both games there was a need of using the TAG like a mix between a Swiss ML and a Swiss HMG, but with some twist.
    NO ONE expects an ambushing TAG.

    But again, what do you think of using him as a Lt. ?
    The payoff is good if its used with finesse, but is it worth the risk ?
    Then again, its much harder to kill than a Fusilier Lt.
     
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  4. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant
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    I tend to be biased pretty heavily against centerpiece Lieutenants. I just don't like them as much since there's pretty much always a restriction or risk associated with them. In the case of the Cutter, giving up Hidden Deployment (or having to carefully manage revealing in the opponent's turn) just don't feel like it's worth +1 Order to me. In the case of something like an O-Yoroi LT with Chain of Command support, paying 21 points and 1 SWC so the O-Yoroi can spend +1 Order doesn't feel worth it to me either. Generally, I think you can get away with a Fusilier LT if you bring along those Auxilia, Acon Minelayers, a decent MSV2 unit, etc

    But as you say, if you have a meta where very, very aggressive Lieutenant hunting is happening with Oniwaban, E/M barrage, etc. then yes you should absolutely use the Cutter (or another easily defendable LT) as your LT option. I still don't think the benefit of the LT Order is worth the risk, but if you need to keep your LT protected and safe, the Cutter's obviously a very good choice.

    .
     
  5. Make PanO Great Again :P

    Make PanO Great Again :P Varuna, with the deadliest reptiles in the sphere

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    Yea, the order is just a plus, this is more about safety than anything else.
    Funny thing is even if i do this there will probably still be a lonesome Fusilier, who knows, maybe someone takes the bait.

    any other opinions ? everything is welcome !
     
  6. TanakoSkyler22

    TanakoSkyler22 Varunan Diplomat

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    Usually, I tend to be against Lieutenants that have TO Camo unless there is a big payoff with them and/or having CoC in the Army (this case being Shinobu for JSA). There are two reasons for it in my opinion:

    1. You lose Hidden Deployment, which is the main draw of taking TO Camo units in the first place. Unless you put your lieutenant in HD, but that puts you in LoL (even if you have CoC I think. I can be wrong, but I think how it is stated CoC does not apply to HD lieutenants).
    2. Putting a TO Camo marker out is probably going to give away your lieutenant easily. This can be easily mitigated by putting out a couple other TO camo units that have that option, but in PanO that is hard to do.

    However as @barakiel mentioned, you are in a meta that tends to hunt lieutenants aggressively it is wise to play outside the box. Personally, I'd say go with the option of taking a few plain fusiliers and have one be the main one while the others are bait. Then protect your lieutenant and baits with some mines, MSV2, and some Flamethrowers as mentioned before.
     
  7. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower
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    I'd be more tempted to go with the Sepulcher Knight in Holo as something that can't be the Lt.

    Then set up a trap with Mines (Acon Minelayer), Auxbots (Auxilia) and a Black Friar covering a pair of Fusilier Lt decoys.

    Kill the attacking units in return for losing a cheerleader then laugh.
     
  8. Make PanO Great Again :P

    Make PanO Great Again :P Varuna, with the deadliest reptiles in the sphere

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    Nice one, but for Deadly Dance i NEED the tag, well not really, but is good pointswise, and there is no way to get a KotHS and a TAG in the same list.
     
  9. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower
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    [​IMG] PanOceania
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]10
    [​IMG] AUXILIA (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle + AUXBOT_1 / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15)
    [​IMG] [​IMG] AUXBOT_1 Heavy Flamethrower / Electric Pulse. (- | 4)
    [​IMG] AUXILIA (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle + AUXBOT_1 / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15)
    [​IMG] [​IMG] AUXBOT_1 Heavy Flamethrower / Electric Pulse. (- | 4)
    [​IMG] REGULAR (Minelayer, Sensor) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 14)
    [​IMG] REGULAR (Minelayer, Sensor) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 14)
    [​IMG] FUSILIER Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 18)
    [​IMG] MACHINIST Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15)
    [​IMG] PALBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
    [​IMG] FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    [​IMG] FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    [​IMG] CUTTER MULTI HMG / . (2.5 | 115)
    [​IMG] [​IMG] CRABBOT Flash Pulse / Knife. ()
    [​IMG] KNIGHT OF THE HOLY SEPULCHRE Lieutenant Spitfire / Pistol, DA CCW. (2 | 56)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]1 [​IMG]1
    [​IMG] TRAUMA-DOC Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14)
    [​IMG] TECH-BEE (Remote Assistant Level 1, Specialist Operative) Flash Pulse / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)

    6 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    I feel like it could be tweaked... but the core concept is there.
     
  10. Make PanO Great Again :P

    Make PanO Great Again :P Varuna, with the deadliest reptiles in the sphere

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    Is it just me or did minelayer became really good of late ?
     
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  11. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower
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    It was always really good.
     
  12. Teslarod

    Teslarod The Squeeze has not been Sqouze

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    JSA revival gave them a big edge over Auxilias, Krakots etc. Camo Markers can't get past them without revealing - period. Impersonators don't want to reveal near them and don't want to reveal to get rid of them either. So yeah, DZ Minelayers are better than ever for their pricetag - ours also gets Sensor which is an added bonus. Tbh my Pathfinder didn't do much in the last 5 or so games as his large silhouette always resulted in him getting picked off before he could do anything. The ability to go Prone and Mines are a lot more attractive for me these days.

    As far as your Cutter Lt is concerned I'd say you are right on the money. You will naturally see short term gains when that extra Order does a lot of work, but the tradeoff is always that it gets even more brutal when someone takes the Cutter down. From reading your summary I'm sure you have realized yourself that 2 games isn't much of a sample size. Most things the Cutter did well in those games are just Cutter things in general and nothing specific to the Lt Profile.
    On the contrary you seem to be pressured to use HD and position yourself in a position where you will need to reveal in ARO to not start in LoL. That right there is probably the biggest argument against taking the Lt Profile. You're forced to gamble so this works out.
    If you miss the chance to reveal or your opponent finds a way to deal with the Cutter after you do, things get difficult. A non Lt Cutter can often be revived with the help of your Machinist and a decent chunk of Orders, in LoL that will be a big qestionmark instead. With a Cutter only being available to Vanilla I'd always expect to run a pair of Krakots anyway. They're excellent support troops for TAGs in general with a combination of DTWs, CC Skill and Forward Deployment, their Veteran also helps counter Mutts and to mitigate LoL. We'll have to see how Varuna will be solving the same problems. So far I'm not convinced Varuna will be able to support a Cutter better than Vanilla. Helots have to be quite something to fix that.

    Against Lt hunting tactics you simply can take a slightly less optimal list and play shell games. Instead of max AVA Fugazi and Mulebots, find some extra points to run several Fusiliers and non FO Auxilia and simply spread them across the map. Although it costs 1 SWC, if you make the Auxilia your Lt that will already protect you against everyone unaware of the fact that Profile even could be Lt. Against Impersonators several possible Lts, covered by Mines spread Prone across rooftops are all you need so that Fiday will go hunt your Nisse/etc instead.

    You've seen it for yourself so I don't have to tell you the Lt Order on the Cutter is much better than an extra cheerleader for your 2nd group. So if you do or if you want to play the Cutter Lt, ask for a game with Spec Ops and simply take CoC to enable the option with a failsafe. For a game of Deadly Dance I'd steer clear and focus on protecting him and the Machinist as much as possible. A Cutter is amazing for that mission already. Well protected, good support troops and excellent at taking down other TAGs himself.
     
    #12 Teslarod, Apr 28, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2018
  13. Make PanO Great Again :P

    Make PanO Great Again :P Varuna, with the deadliest reptiles in the sphere

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    Yep, but i didn't usually think it was a must have before, now.... i reach for it much more.

    @Teslarod
    Like you said, the extra order its not worth this kind of gamble, but the amount of agro in my meta now has become something on another level (kind of my fault also, first turn double Crocman + Peacmaker for a year tend to do that to people), everyone use to play much more defensive, the norm was always going second, now doing a crippling alpha is the name of the game.
    I tend to play single combat group because i like high end toys and they are expensive, but i will scratch some points (Nisses sniper to Kamau and the like) and bring 2 Fusiliers, not that great of a shell game with only 2, but at least they will have to work to get the Lt. hahahaha
     
  14. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower
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    Yeah, I've been telling new players that a pair of Acontecimento Regulars to run as Minelayer/Sensor profiles for years now.

    Running those alongside Auxilia FOs is one of the strengths of Vanilla PanOceania.

    And making traps for enemy attack runs is only one of the reasons why, largely because Fugazi are so great and Sensor is worth having backup for (and it's nice having a BS12 option for Triangulated Fire).
     
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  15. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    I like Sensor+Sniper or Sensor+Hacker for my vanila Regs,

    They are incredible profiles that are really fun to use.

    That being said, Im running more Pathfinder in my lists at the moment for the Sat-Lock and FO on my Sensor
     
  16. Superfluid

    Superfluid Welcome to Svalarheima

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    [​IMG] INO12 - List #1
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]8 [​IMG]2
    [​IMG] JOAN OF ARC Lieutenant MULTI Rifle, Nanopulser / Pistol, DA CCW. (+1 | 50)
    [​IMG] CUTTER MULTI HMG / . (2.5 | 115)
    [​IMG] [​IMG] CRABBOT Flash Pulse / Knife. ()
    [​IMG] SIERRA DRONBOT HMG / Electric Pulse. (1 | 25)
    [​IMG] MACHINIST Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15)
    [​IMG] PALBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
    [​IMG] FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    [​IMG] MULEBOT (Minesweeper, Repeater) Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    [​IMG] WARCOR (Aerocam) Flash Pulse / Stun Pistol, Knife. (0 | 3)
    [​IMG] TECH-BEE (Remote Assistant Level 1, Specialist Operative) Flash Pulse / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    [​IMG] CROC MAN Hacker (Assault Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 36)
    [​IMG] CROC MAN (Forward Observer, Deployable Repeater) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 32)

    4 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    My preference to the Cutter LT is to have a Joan LT in a Cutter list.

    * a hardy LT that you can make difficult to gank
    * No requirement to reveal out of Hidden Deployment before your first turn
    * Can still have 11 order Cutter turns by using Joans order at a time when you are going to Move-Move a bunch of guys anyway.
    * 3 hidden deployment AROs to make life difficult for enemies roving up trying to squeeze out kills if you go second.
    * Infiltrating specialists
    * Good units to co-ord suppression with.
    * Huge mind games where even if you deploy first you only put down 67 points on the table (reserve Joan)
     
    #16 Superfluid, May 1, 2018
    Last edited: May 3, 2018
  17. Make PanO Great Again :P

    Make PanO Great Again :P Varuna, with the deadliest reptiles in the sphere

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    Love it, looks really fun, im a complete devotee to Lt. Joan
    but i dont know if i feel comfortable loosing both the minelayer crocman and one of them being relegated to console duty (the mulebot instead of a second fugazi must be a typo or you play MO and are not used to take a second one).

    But using the Sierra instead of a Nisses or a Kamau snipers for ARO...... i stop using that rem a long time ago and never looked at him again, maybe its time to come back to amount of dice over the mod´s game.... plus frees some points and swc...... intresting
     
  18. Superfluid

    Superfluid Welcome to Svalarheima

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    The real trick is to make sure you hidden deployment units waiting to pounce on guys that over extend, try and bait opponents into attack into lanes you're happy for them to attack into, and make sure the Cutter has a nice long lane to plop a BS18 Explosive attack into something as it walks across, ideally a tail member of a link. Doubling up behind a the sierra or overlooking an obvious flanking route to Joan can be really effective, as they are the only things your opponents can see and will naturally go for.

    I even played this list in a game of Supplies, I had both croc men overlooking the box on either side (in cover at 20ish inches away to punish wimpy riflemen infiltrators with -12) and the Cutter overlooking the central box (that was the only one visible from my deployment), and I waited until the Ariadnan player has finished WIPing the boxes open and when they start to move away, that's when I reveal and punish them. It was a bit of a gambit but it was enough of a swing to set me up for the game as I didn't have to spend my own orders with rubbish WIP opening boxes, as he did them all for me.

    EDIT:

    I think you're right regarding the mulebot. They are interchangable with Fugazis in the list, and Fugazis are usually better. I think I took a Mulebot this time in the hopes I might see some Aleph players and want to have a go at their netrods with the minesweeper :D
     
    #18 Superfluid, May 3, 2018
    Last edited: May 3, 2018
  19. Make PanO Great Again :P

    Make PanO Great Again :P Varuna, with the deadliest reptiles in the sphere

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    Soooooooooooooooooo............ in the end i did something stupid..........., i´m sorry guys, but i promise it was FOR SCIENCE!!!!
    (reminder, this list was to be used in Deadly Dance and Firefight, its not a concept for everyday play)

    [​IMG] PanOceania
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────
    [​IMG]10 [​IMG]1
    [​IMG] CUTTER Lieutenant MULTI HMG / . (3 | 115)
    [​IMG] [​IMG] CRABBOT Flash Pulse / Knife. ()
    [​IMG] PEACEMAKER Heavy Shotgun + AUXBOT_3 / Electric Pulse. (0 | 21)
    [​IMG] [​IMG] AUXBOT_3 Heavy Flamethrower / Electric Pulse. (- | 4)
    [​IMG] CROC MAN (Minelayer) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 31)
    [​IMG] CROC MAN (Minelayer) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 31)
    [​IMG] REGULAR (Minelayer, Sensor) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 14)
    [​IMG] REGULAR (Minelayer, Sensor) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 14)
    [​IMG] HEXA Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0 | 27)
    [​IMG] KRAKOT RENEGADE 2 Chain Rifles, Grenades / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 14)
    [​IMG] SIERRA DRONBOT HMG / Electric Pulse. (1 | 25)
    [​IMG] FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    6 SWC | 300 Points
    Open in Infinity Army

    The idea is in plain display, close the board and punish infiltrators, deprive first turn targets, force the enemy to move up and engage or be annihilated by a Pacemaker and 2 Crocman flankers. In the last moment i gave up the Machinist, if i lost the Cutter there was no way to fix it in LOL, specially because both missions give him a 40cm deploy.
    Not going to do a step by step battrep, just important points.

    Deadly Dance Vs Morat Aggression Force
    Kornak, Raicho, TrBot, Ikadron, Yogarat sniper and HD, Zerat, Dr. Worm + HelpBot and a Daturazi
    Went second, deploy second, the HD was on the other side of the container the sniper was in, Dr. Worm close by, the Daturazi on the same flank, and the Ikadron lost in his deploy on the other side.
    I deploy to counter with the regulars in total cover behind buildings B and D with their mines in the DZ limit, one crocman with the mine next to the Zerat and he just behind, the other over building A with the mine behind the corner, Pacemaker in total cover behind the central building, Sierra in cover next to building C and the Cutter in cover in front of C.
    There was a thin line of fire between building A and the wall.
    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    We both rolled the zone closer to building B.

    he shot the Sierra with the Raicho with no results and then crosed the line of fire expecting a second try, and my Cutter went idle, i got him one wound, he move the raicho to the zone eating the mine and shooting out of cover and got bad luck, Raicho down. Smoked the alley and over the tag to move Dr. Worm, got there, got 20 on the dice, he killed his own TAG. Used last orders to retreat and get in cover.
    From there on was completely one sided. i got a Crocman killed by speculative granade over the krakot and the Pacemaker died doing his dutty, he only got out the Ikadron, the zerat and the HD.
    10-0


    Firefight vs NCA (he was on side A)
    Squalo HGL (total cover behind middle green building), EvoHD (next to squalo), Full fusilier link (ML+HMG+FO+2 dudes)(middle white building with ML and HMG on top), Auxila FO (far right), warcore, hexa khd, Black Friar, pathfinder and a fugazzi (this last 5 were behind the central building and the right container).
    The lines where reaaaaalllllly thin here, so didnt do anything fancy, Sierra covering the middle lane, Regulars in total cover on each side with the mines in front, one Crocman to the far right (in front of the auxila) and the second one covering next to the left lane, Pacemaker behind the building in front of the letter B and the Hexa and Cutter deploy on token well behind (the cutter behind the geen building on the back edge, the lines were to thin to reveal in ARO and didnt wanted to start in LOL)
    [​IMG]
    First turn he spend some comand tokkens moving up the fugazzi+Pahfinder+Friar and sensored my left Crocman and mine, sat-locked the mine and bombarded, killed the mine but not the crocman, bombarded pacemaker but failed, got frustrated and moved the friar up to kill the crocman and failed, Moved the Auxila foreward to cover the right flank.
    Right crocman killed the Auxila, crossed the gap with the Cutter and got revealed, but didnt wanted to get in a shootout with the ML fusilier, slice the pie to kill the friar and then the Pathfinder (lost my left crocman to the friar to bad rolls first), moved up the right crocman to activate the panoply and kill the fugazzi. Did some other unimportant stuff.
    After that it was more or less static shooting from him and arrasment from me but almost never crossing the middle line.
    7-0

    Well, its a shitty list but it worked really good for what it was designed to do in this particular missions.
    Pacemaker: the dude knows how to make an opponent overextend, his auxbot and HSG just one order away scare everyone.
    Crocman minelayer: they have to go in pairs, you will mostly active use only one to full extent, but with both flanks you always have one on the weak side.
    Regulars: wanted to have the last word on DZ defense and keep any TO out of reach of my Tag, they managed to make the trip to my side of the table a little more costly and make me feel safer.
    Sierra: if it wasnt for @Superfluid i never pay attention to this unit anymore, if you remember to use him to cover lanes instead of all the table its superb, specially because i clogged the other lanes with mines, a HSG and a flamethrower. Thanks dude!!!
    Cutter LT. : it worked, if everything goes your way you have a super protected Lt., but if he goes down is game over, its a BIG gamble that ask for extreme finesse.

    All in all, if its stupid but it works, maybe its not so stupid (4-0 with the list is not that big of a test, but starts to make you pay attention)
     
    AdmiralJCJF likes this.
  20. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower
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    You have done us, as a community, a service with your diligent inquiry into this question.

    On behalf of the officers of the Hexahedron I would like to pass on our thanks and appreciation.

    Carry on.
     
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