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Heavy Infantry links and Limited Insertion (MO).

Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by Domino25, Jun 3, 2019.

  1. Domino25

    Domino25 Member

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    I had some success with NCA and Varuna lists, and now I've been wanting to try out Joan and Hospitallers link. I'm new to the game so I don't have much experience to go by, but it seems like a few hackers and repeaters would be a big threat to this type of list. I'm particularly worried about Nomads dropping a pitcher or Securitate and then having 2-3 ARO hacking chances against the link. Any tips or insight on how Joan/Hospitallers list would deal with that? I started with the below due to maximum greed/fear of hackers, but I could use some advice on it.

    Military Orders
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]5 [​IMG]2
    JOAN OF ARC Lieutenant MULTI Rifle, Nanopulser / Pistol, DA CCW. (+1 | 50)
    KNIGHT OF SANTIAGO Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Nanopulser, D-Charges + 1 TinBot A (Deflector L1) / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 38)
    DE FERSEN Spitfire / Pistol, Templar CCW (AP + Shock). (2 | 56)
    KNIGHT HOSPITALLER Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 31)
    KNIGHT HOSPITALLER Doctor (MediKit) MULTI Rifle / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 39)
    WARCOR (360º Visor) Flash Pulse / Stun Pistol, Knife. (0 | 3)
    TECH-BEE (Remote Assistant Level 1, Specialist Operative) Flash Pulse / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)

    2 SWC | 222 Points

    Open in Infinity Army



    I was thinking De Fersen/Santiago Killer hacker and the Doctor in the link might help, is that the way to go or maybe they just become the first targets to go down? Am I asking to get pinned in my DZ without an HMG? Also, with an HI link I'm pretty much stuck with a 10 order list. Do you have any general advice playing 10 order lists?

    Thanks in advance!
     
  2. herod1204

    herod1204 Knight of Santiago

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    You don't need to worry about the aros unless you are doing something other than moving. All the Knights you list there have martial arts, which gives them stealth, so they won't trigger an aro through being in the zone of control, unless they do something other than moving.

    Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk
     
  3. Domino25

    Domino25 Member

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    My friend plays Tunguska specifically, so I'm expecting an interventor in a 5 man link. I completely accept that I may be playing to his strengths. I tell myself it's a good way to learn even though really I just want to play with SPACE KNIGHTS!
     
  4. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    As long as your Joan link team isn't attacking the Tunguska link, Sixth Sense does not apply. Simply moving through a Repeater bubble isn't a problem.

     
  5. Domino25

    Domino25 Member

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    I misunderstood that rule...

    Facepalm of shame:
    upload_2019-6-3_14-32-21.jpeg

    ...So that helps a lot. Rethinking a few things out loud now. Baring a Coordinated hacking attack, my Santiago, or De fersen would most likely be fighting 1 hacker at a time (opponents active), with the tinbot as defense. I would want to use Redrum and Carbonite respectively which I don't think is an awful odds? On my active turn, I just move out of the repeater and shoot it, might hurt if I'm in Lof or there is a mine, but otherwise it just costs an order.

    Should I even bother with De Fersen?
    Any advice on what an HI link needs support wise for the rest of the list?

    Sidenote: I think I got the misconception from the Varuna tactica, quote below, is this straight out wrong or am I misunderstanding what they are saying?

    "If you decide to go Hacking heavy as well, the Fusilier Hacker in a link team is the easiest way to get a Sixth Sense Level 2-capable Hacker. The advantage here is simple: Sixth Sense Level 2 simply allows you to ignore the Stealth rule, which means that Stealthy hackable targets such as Camo or Martial Arts equipped Heavy Infantry cannot simply walk past your Repeater network."
     
  6. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant
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    Whoa let's clarify. @Domino25 you had it right.

    Stealth "is not effective against troopers with the Sixth Sense Special skill."

    This is under the rules for Stealth, not under the rules for Sixth Sense.

    So yes, linked Hackers are great vs Stealth targets. A unit with Sixth Sense just ignores Stealth as if it wasn't there. Hackers in a 4+ man link team gain access to Sixth Sense Level 2, and therefore ignore enemy Stealth.

    Note that Inverventors can't link, but a linked Securitate Hacker is very good insurance versus Stealthed targets. You're certainly right to be concerned about facing one with a Heavy Infantry link team, so you'lll probably want a Specialist Sergeant Forward Observer who can go in and clean out enemy Repeaters.

    You can also just toss Faerie Dust up, and just hope to tank the incoming Hacker attacks.
     
    #6 barakiel, Jun 3, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2019
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  7. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead
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    Tanking hacking attacks can actually be a viable tactic, especially if there aren't many repeaters between your HIs and hacker in question. Though in this case I wouldn't use Crusade team, but a BS Father-Knight, for effective BTS 12 when using Fairy Dust.
     
  8. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower
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    Actually, you CAN get an Interventor into a Grenzer Core.

    That's unusual mostly because the Grenzer Core isn't exactly optimal, but I'd consider it against an opponent I knew was running MO.
     
    xammy, Solar, Stiopa and 1 other person like this.
  9. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    Honestly, I think crusade links are not only one dimensional (The list rarely does anything else due to the cost) but they arent all that great either in my opinion given the restriction on forming the link (MUST be 4 Hospitallers+Joan)

    As to the specific link you have, that leaves you vulnerable to being locked down by opponent hackers. If the Santiago and DeFersen are both in hacking area during their reactive they must use the same program or break link/idle. As such, if they both want to hack back, the only option is trinity which is significantly sub par in ARO compared to redrum (-3, Dam16 and DT)

    As to links,

    There are 4 rough links paradyms in MO

    An Order Sergeant LI Link, keeping it cheap, kicking the HI out in favour of the pure OS+BF+Kon tollkit options. Not bad, definitely the cheapest so will push towards highest orders and a little limited in terms of ARO ability, but solid and disposable for active due to BS12, WIP13 and low relative cost.

    Order Sergeant+HI Link, Start subbing in Father Knights and Santiago Wildcards gives the link the toughest ARO options (FK ML) and good Active HI options (Spitfires and Specialists) But keeps the cost slimmed down due to the presence of multiple OSs in the link (2-3)

    Tueton Link, The more HI pure link that sits between a Full ARM4 HI Core and the aboce OS+HI link. Magisters are low cost HI, keeping a single OS in the link also helps keep the cost down. This is probably the second most flexible link, able to operate as an active link (Spitfires) or reactive link (Magister ML/PFs) for low cost. additionally the cost of the offensive BS14 pieces can be tailored to taste with the Tueton, Spit, Tueton NCO and Santiago Spit options.

    The Crusade Link (4 Hostpitallers/Santiagos+Joan) Solid, but inflexible and the cost means that this link often winds up as the only thing a list can do. It will either dominate due to ARM and BS or it will crumple and be unable to re-form due to variance in dice. It does have access to the linked HMG, but trades out that extra punch for almost no serious ARO capability.
    Its not bad, but its limited and contains a whole bunch of baggage from perception based on previous iterations of the MO list.

    Then there are the Haris, these again can be very interesting, particularly with the inclusion of Order Sergeants for active punch/cost cutting
    Tueton Haris, which either runs a Magist ML for light ARO, or really needs to be looking at running an Order Seargent for a solid active Gun. Cheapest of the haris options and can sub in magisters like the Tueton Core
    And Hospitaller Haris, Gets the Doc and the HMG, probably the better/simpler of the Haris options and definitely the one that gains the most benefit of haris.
     
    #9 daboarder, Jun 4, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2019
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  10. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant
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    Grenzers have a Core link?

    :wink:
     
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  11. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    yup
     
  12. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    You're new, but NEVER feel bad for missing or misunderstanding a rule. Well, maybe if you've been playing as long as I have.


    SSL2 models still don't get an ARO because there isn't an attack for them to react to. See also Cautious Move.
     
  13. Soter

    Soter Active Member

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    I´ve been playing both Tunguska and MO recently and, though I´m by no means a great player (not even a good one), I think I might be able to share some thoughts that can may help you.

    From the Tunguska point of view, I would not bother with an Interventor in a Grenzer team to gain SSL2. Just having a Securitate hacker in a 5 men core will be enough, because you will be ignoring stealth and then the objective can do two things: either he resets or uses another program if he´s a hacker, but if he does so he loses stealth and then my Interventor/Mary/Hollow man assault gains an ARO and can break him, or he does nothing so he doesn´t lose his stealth but then the securitate is hacking unopposed, and with WIP 14 he´s a decent hacker.

    When I play MO, the way I try to solve this is by using a fireteam that has miniatures with and without stealth. I normally use a Haris of Teuton NCO, Teuton Haris and Santiago Killer Hacker. Now if I move through a repeater with this link, the hackers who don´t have SSL2 have to ARO against the teutons, who have BTS6, so they can reasonably tank any hacking assault (more so with the cover of the Santiago´s TinBot and the eventual use of Fairy Dust if I have another hacker or EVO hacker), and then I can try to kill them unopposed with my Santiago.

    If I am facing hackers with and without SSL2, possibly it would go the following way: the haris moves into a repeater, those hackers without SSL2 declare ARO against the teutons, the hacker with SSL2 declares ARO against the Santiago, and if everything goes well, Santiago kills the hacker with SSL2 and the teutons tank the hacking attack from those without SSL2, and then the Santiago is free to kill them unopposed in subsequent orders.

    I believe everything I have written is correct according to the rules and the recent FAQs, but as I said I am far from being an experienced player, so if something is uncorrect I apologize. I hope it helps :)
     
  14. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead
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    @Soter I'd just like to point out that Stealth is optional ;)
     
  15. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    Grenzer core is good eff the haters
     
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  16. Maksimas

    Maksimas Maxi

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    I think you also forget the Hospitaller Core ( Not to be confused with the Joan Core, that has to have 4 Hospitallers and a Joan. ).

    You can still toss in an OS to cheapen it down, can toss in Fersen and/or Santiagos if need be, and since it's a Hospitaller Core, most of your specialists in it are probably Doctors.
     
  17. Spinnaker

    Spinnaker Well-Known Member

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    I don't think the attack matters. You need to be attacked to use sixth sense, yes, but the precise wording is "Stealth is not effective against troopers with the Sixth Sense skill". The way I read this, a trooper only needs to possess the sixth sense skill in order to ignore stealth - they don't need to be using it.

    Sixth sense passively nullifies stealth, and then the trooper is able to make a hacking ARO as normal
     
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  18. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant
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    Right, @Spinnaker has it.

    It's in the rules for Stealth, not in the rules for Sixth Sense. from the entry for Stealth in the wiki, first sentence below:

    [​IMG]
     
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  19. Ayadan

    Ayadan Knight of the TAG Order

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    I think Hospitaller core is the biggest trap set in this sectorial to all the old MO players. It's a good active team but it costs too much to only be good only during active turn. I find Teutonic/Santiago ones better as they still can fit in a HRL OS with HIs with Panzerfaust or Spitfire. OS link is also good as it is also more flexible in how you can build it.
     
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  20. Domino25

    Domino25 Member

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    I was looking over the hacking programs and it almost seems like bringing a hacker in the link is a liability, with Mary Problems (lightning) and Interventor HD+ (Suckerpunch) a hacking showdown (active or reactive turn) seems like a bad fight for me and could easily drop a member of the link team. The hacking attacks on HI don't seem that bad other than they soften my team up for other units. However, I can reset out of all of them? So I'm wondering if I should drop the hackers, and then worst case is some of my link get "Immobilized-1". I then try to kill the repeater/hacker with the rest of the link (or other units) then reset and move on?

    Another thought I had was to bring a Crusader and hope to nail some of the hackers with him before releasing the pain train. Regardless I still worry he'll land a pitcher turn 1 and fry any hackers in my link.

    I do have a question regarding hacking AROs and attacks. Say Joan pops around a corner within 8 inches of a hacker and either shoots or gets to CC. If the hacker aros a hacking attack, is that face to face against a bs or cc attack?

    I see some of the criticisms of the Crusade team and I'm mostly wanting to use it for a joyride rather than because I think its optimum. To be honest I struggle with wanting to field Joan but not feeling great about it from an efficiency standpoint. I may try vanilla with her but that's a can of worms for another day.
     
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