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Heavy Infantry in Vanilla, IA, & ISS

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by Space Ranger, Aug 17, 2018.

  1. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, there's something wrong with his face and the leg pose is just passive. Looks more like he's trying to sell the sword and is showing it to a customer.
     
  2. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    BTW if anyone wants my excel file for Yu Jing. Just PM me and I can send it to you.

    When you see it all in a spread sheet, it really opens up a way of see things.
     
    AdmiralJCJF likes this.
  3. Scutarii

    Scutarii Active Member

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    Looking through Vedic/OSS and they’ve got a host of expensive profiles but also have efficiency boosters to still let them run multiple links and get to 15-17 orders.

    I could see IA getting some of those toys, a cheap mixed Zhanshi+Zuyong core with several duo and Haris style options mixing in some cheaper models. Lt lv2, NCO to allow using those orders inside the links. Higher AVA on the cheaper remotes to bulk up order counts and bring sniffers and sensors.

    The core is defensive while the smaller heavy teams go forward and do the fighting for example.
     
  4. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    The way things have been going, I can see them getting REM mixed fire teams.
     
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  5. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, that's what I'm expecting. A sub-25pt REM in link teams of heavier stuff.
     
    meikyoushisui likes this.
  6. Krofna

    Krofna Well-Known Member

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    Some new info about IA inside this video:



    tldw: No new TAG, or linking TAGs (deemed too OP by playtesting). We will have Zhanshis, and also an option to deploy all HI lists, new special rules incoming. Design simillar to MO.
     
  7. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Nah, not similar to MO at all, but that their ambition was to make a HI-focused army similar to how they did for MO. I mean, Shasvasti and Tartary are both marker-state focused armies, but they're very different and I the message I got from the video was that IA will be HI focused like MO but a lot different from MO.
     
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  8. Sedral

    Sedral Invincible Officier

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    Yeah, MO knights pretty much all have the same flavour of shooty-stabby HI, eventually with some gadgets, supported by a cast of more specialized unit. IA will have much more diversity within it's HI range, so the supporting cast will also end up in power armor.

    Also, Bostria said they made new rules and skills to allow IA to play as intended, with full HI list. I wonder if that means they made up something that allows a 7/8 models list to play with 10 orders...
     
  9. bloodstone

    bloodstone Member

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    He mentionned NCO. I guess Lt 2 works too . maybe strategos 1 ? Having 12 orders for 10-models lists is great .I don't expect to have much more

    I hope for at least 3 characters too !
     
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  10. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    To be honest, I somewhat suspect they aim at 7-8 models with full 10 orders, but I find that dubious simply because the body count is too low for this game. You'll need multi-role bodies similar to the Sophotect, Interventor LTs, or what's exceedingly rare; specialist with SWC weapon simply to be able to accomplish missions - and none of these seem to be within the design spectrum of Yu Jing with their sectioned off perfectly mediocre specialists, much like Pan-O it's more about clearing the way for the specialist than fighting with the specialist.

    But if that control operative has, say... Sixth Sense 2 in general and Killer Hacker + Multi Sniper on one profile and FO + FD2 + Boarding Shotgun on the other (for a weird HI take on Raiden), and that this type of design were a constant among the new profiles...
     
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  11. Shango

    Shango Well-Known Member

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    I actually think that the recent arrival of Lt L2 and NCO foreshadows a clever solution to bring more orders to the short lists. This also presages a more intensive use of the lieutenant (unless they accumulate Lt L2 + NCO + Stratego L1). It also means that the lieutenant on our list will be obvious most of the time which does not favor us so much.
    Finally I also hope that the Invincible army will have specific rules that one will not find in other armies: always in order to diversify the ways of playing (and also to avoid the accumulation of tricks to win orders with cheerleading spam and arrive at aberrant lists of 18-20 orders).

    Suntze V3! :wink:
     
  12. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    I don't think the idea of stacking multiple orders into one or two models is going to allow a low model count list to work. If CB think that's possible then they clearly don't understand jack shit about their game. One speculo killer or Fiday is going to shred your order count by punching the shit out of everything in melee deleting even more of your orders every time they drop a model.

    And a low model count list won't even pack their natural predators that keep them out of your deployment zone which is cheap WB assholes armed with chain rifles.

    It also further exacerbates the issue of one or two bad crits completely fucking your game over. It's already painful to lose an expensive power piece to a bad roll, now compound the issue by deleting that model plus bonus orders.

    TBH I won't be surprised if IA turns out to be fairly trash tier being hamstrung by a fucking retarded ideal in design of heavily targeting limited insertion builds like the CBLs, and the main benefit of IA is just adding new models to Vanilla.
     
    #32 Triumph, Sep 20, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2018
  13. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Look, fuck Impersonation, it's a terribly conceived rule that's designed to win the game for you if you got first turn - it really really shouldn't be WIP to deploy in DZ, the IMP state itself is too strong and the skill is laughably cheap. Anything else you can deal with, but if a key order monkey gets Holo2 then even against Impersonation you've got a chance.
    Hell, if IA brings YJ another inexpensive Holo2 skirmisher that would also solve a lot of leadership problems all-round, but even if a Ryuken style take on the Kanren won't happen, then simply a Holo2 Zuyong would do.
    Hell, make it Holo1 and umpf it up to be a reliable threat to an Oniwaban or Speculo - Boarding Shotgun, Sixth Sense 1 and Full-Auto and then watch those Impersonators sweat over who they target...
     
  14. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    It's all good to say fuck impersonation, it's a bad rule. I constantly say fuck Ghazi, but they still exist and are game breaking. A group of competent game devs would've fixed them by now, by instead we work with what we've got which are cocaine fueled Spanish weeboos.

    But back to the point. I don't see this design working. Trying to do pure HI and going down to 7-8 models is just going to be trash. The way the game is built just means you're going to die horribly if you don't go first to any run of the mill rambo. And this game is built around the crit system and needing to leave models out to get killed on ARO duty. You need plan B and C, because you're inevitably going to get fucked on some rolls and take casualties. The problem being you can't have plan B and C if your army is tiny and you don't have the bodies to throw around.
     
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  15. REND

    REND Well-Known Member

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    How often have people run lists that are mostly comprised of HI? How good or bad they were isn't the most important concern here, it's a question about whether you've put this type of list on the table and thinking about how it played.

    I've often tried to run a decent number of HI but access to cheap chaff alway meant that I didn't really field lists comprised mainly of HI because I could just bulk up the order pool with expendables and focus points into juicy expensive toys. A protracted spell trying out Wu ming core fire-teams led me appreciate that lists with a majority of multi-wound models operate very differently from other link-teams. If every model can afford to tank a non-DA (or similar) hit and keep on trucking, the link can be much more fearless about moving up the table. Taking risks with AROs that ignore the leader and just generally being a pain to deal with. I've really enjoyed running full HI links. Even the halfway options such as the zhanying haris with a hsien offers something for comparison here (in part because of how expensive zhanying are) and a core link with a haris is a very flexible and solid basis for a list. If you plan on limited insertion then the 2 remaining slots can be whatever you like to round out the list or make up the last few points depending what you need and how many points are left.

    5 zuyong including a couple of big guns, one-two specialists and a tinbot come to about 160pts. Half your combat group for a little over half your points. It really doesn't take much effort to fill out the rest of the list with good models made up of either more cheap HI (hopefully some specialists) or a couple of pricier models and some cheap light infantry or remotes to keep within the points limit. So long as the new IA profiles include and are made up of primarily modestly costed HI options then we should be about to field a 10 model list with 10+ orders (if new rule rumours are to be believed) and the majority being multi-wound with a few points of armour.

    Hacking is a concern but Yu jing are blessed with tinbot Bs and you can also run fairy dust to make things really difficult for opponents trying to hack you. If IA have solid link options with access to tinbots then hacking isn't as much of a problem as it would be for other factions.

    I'm not willing to call anything trash until I've at least given it a chance on the table. (It may only be one chance but it'll get a chance.)
     
  16. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    ... ... ... ok, I would advice to take a few steps back from the keyboard, rethink what you wrote and how you would feel if somebody said that to you and then come back to the discussion...

    Somebody been a CB employees is not an exemption from the forum policy requiring the posters of been polite towards other forum users and people in general at, at least, the very basic level, I hope this is understood.
     
  17. Ariwch

    Ariwch The denizen of the StateEmpire salt mine

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    I heavily doubt your earnest but a bit too emotional concern, Citizen. We have Zanshi confirmed for the upcoming sectorial and it's almost certainly means a full core-team option. That in turn means good flexibility in order count. I doubt anybody waits for a dirty-cheap order spam from HI-specialized sub-faction, but I suppose, we won't get some useless oh-so-everybody-love-LI faction form a Yandun creator (CBL pun intentional).
     
  18. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    I'm pumped about all HI lists. Even just getting some utility HI will be fantastic for the types of vanilla lists I write.

    I can imagine IA being very cool to play. Challenging, as low model count armies always are, but definitely competitive.
     
  19. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    I'd be OK with 7-8 models in an IA list if we had 9-10 orders to use. But if we're only talking 7-8 orders, well, that's a failing list design. I don't think CB would let that happen. I played a LOT of 7-orders-at-200 lists back in the day, never won a game with them due to too few orders (and my own stupidity, mind you!). LT2 and Strategos L1 would work (pretty brutal skill combo, actually).

    I'm kinda expecting a Zuyong+Sonbae Special Core as an option.

    Wildcard on the Shang Ji would help, allowing you to put a Shang Ji into any link. Shang Ji Duoing with a Yan Huo, anyone?
     
  20. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Bostria said they're trying to make it like MO where the HI are forced into the spotlight.

    You know what one of the things MO does to achieve this? They deliberately prevent the line infantry from being able to form a full core link by limiting AVA. They exist to spot fill last orders and cheap specialists.

    @psychoticstorm I assume once again you're taking umbrage with me taking shots at CB for being incompetent at game balance. The reality is they're not very good at it and they take way too long to fix blatantly overly good and bad profiles in a digital age when they have a digital army application and this stuff could literally be fixed overnight for everybody. Until they rectify this I will continue to point out that they fail at their jobs. That's not an insult, it's just a fact.
     
    #40 Triumph, Sep 22, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2018
    Mruczyslaw likes this.