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Hating on Tohaa

Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by Superfluid, Jan 19, 2018.

  1. Superfluid

    Superfluid Welcome to Svalarheima

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    So, at the last tourney I went to I got smashed 10-0 by an excellent player running Tohaa.

    I would like to point out that this player would almost certainly have beaten me regardless of his choice of faction becaus he usually comes top 3 at this tourney, if not wins it. Though I like to think i would have stood more of a chance against this player if they were using a faction I was familiar with like Yu Jing

    Anyway, what didn't help is that I hadn't played against Tohaa at all before and only loosely appreciated what they could do. I knew triads were a thing, and symbiomates existed, but that is pretty much the extent.

    The mission was frontline and after deploying first he counter deployed with:

    [​IMG] Horribleness
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]10 [​IMG]3
    [​IMG] SUKEUL HMG, D-Charges / Pistol, Breaker Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 35)
    [​IMG] MAKAUL Heavy Flamethrower, Eclipse Grenades / Pistol, Viral CCW. (0 | 13)
    [​IMG] KAELTAR (Chain of Command) Light Shotgun, Flash Pulse + 2 SymbioMates / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0.5 | 21)
    [​IMG] SUKEUL Missile Launcher, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Breaker Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 36)
    [​IMG] MAKAUL Heavy Flamethrower, Eclipse Grenades / Pistol, Viral CCW. (0 | 13)
    [​IMG] KAMAEL Paramedic (Medikit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14)
    [​IMG] GAO-RAEL Sniper Rifle / Pistol, CCW. (1 | 31)
    [​IMG] MAKAUL Heavy Flamethrower, Eclipse Grenades / Pistol, Viral CCW. (0 | 13)
    [​IMG] CHAKSA AUXILIAR (Baggage, Sensor) Heavy Flamethrower / Pistol, CCW. (0 | 10)
    [​IMG] KAMAEL Lieutenant Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]5
    [​IMG] CHAKSA AUXILIAR (Baggage, Sensor) Heavy Flamethrower / Pistol, CCW. (0 | 10)
    [​IMG] GAO-RAEL Sniper Rifle / Pistol, CCW. (1 | 31)
    [​IMG] KAMAEL Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12)
    [​IMG] KAELTAR (Chain of Command) Light Shotgun, Flash Pulse + 2 SymbioMates / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0.5 | 21)
    [​IMG] KERAIL PRECEPTOR Submachine Gun, Smoke Grenades + 2 Surda SymbioBeasts / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0 | 28)
    [​IMG] [​IMG] SURDA SYMBIOBEAST Pulzar / Viral CCW. (0 | 8)

    6 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    4 Triads, some CC gsync monsters with templates, and a couple of MSV2 units with symbiomates.

    So what I want help with is, if I told you you were going to play against this list ahead of time, what list for Vanilla PanO (is my primary interest, but feel free to post sectorial ones as well) would you take to deliberately dismantle this? I'm looking for A-Class hosing.

    Not that I expect this player to play tohaa next time, or to fight this same list again. I just want to know what units and strategies people would employ if they had all the information up front.

    Assume you're playing some area control mission, quadrent or frontline sort of thing.

    Cheers!
     
    #1 Superfluid, Jan 19, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2018
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  2. theGricks

    theGricks Well-Known Member

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    The biggest problem I have with Tohaa is that there is just so few as such its really hard to get a measure on good counters outside of theory crafting. It is very important against Tohaa to have proper target priority, and bank on doing slightly less actions per turn due to symbiomates and bioarmor making it require additional orders to chew through. Once you start knocking out their active pieces though they become much less of a problem. Tohaa use the fireteams usually to buff a sungle model of that fireteam. If you can properly isolate a fight and knock out those models, that should really help. Tohaa require long term tactical thinking as opposed to turn by turn.
     
  3. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant
    Warcor

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    I like NCA a lot for these matchups, especially since NCA's also great at Frontline.

    The Gao Rael isn't quick enough to counter hiding and maneuvering Swiss/Hexa/Bulleteers. The Swiss in particular is brutal against it, because the Swiss can tank any Sniper Hits that squeeze their way through and can do some punishing work to put the Gao Rael down.

    With the Gao Rael down, PanO can win the mod-stacking game. Makaul are good deterrents with flamethrowers and eclipse, but all it takes is squeezing a hit or two in to put down a Makaul (always one wound, no symbiont on them.) You can even hide a Swiss Miss or Hexa Sniper in Hidden Deployment, and wait to pop a maneuvering Triad as it's out in the open. You can even time your reveal and snipe the weakest link, like the Kaeltar or Paramedic, to reduce the Triad bonuses and make the Makaul/Sukeul easier to handle with subsequent Orders/AROs.

    What you don't want to do is engage the toughest symbiont models in their best rangebands, or with troops susceptible to their given strengths. Don't tackle the Gao-Rael with one Wound shock susceptible models. Don't engage the Sukeul Missile from outside 24 inches. Don't stand up in the active turn against the HMG. Don't get too close to the flamethrower or CC.
     
  4. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Oh boy, typical double Sukuel list, it's only missing Rasail Boarding Team Lt ....

    I had some success with following list against Tohaa (we were playing Supplies, had double Clipsos):


    [​IMG] Neoterran Capitaline Army
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]9 [​IMG]1
    [​IMG] FUSILIER Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
    [​IMG] FUSILIER Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
    [​IMG] FUSILIER Missile Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 15)
    [​IMG] FUSILIER Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 18)
    [​IMG] FUSILIER Lieutenant Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
    [​IMG] SWISS GUARD HMG / Pistol, AP CCW. (2 | 68)
    [​IMG] AUXILIA (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle + AUXBOT_1 / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15)
    [​IMG] [​IMG] AUXBOT_1 Heavy Flamethrower / Electric Pulse. (- | 4)
    [​IMG] CSU Boarding Shotgun, Nanopulser / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 11)
    [​IMG] CSU Boarding Shotgun, Nanopulser / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 11)
    [​IMG] WARCOR (Aerocam) Flash Pulse / Stun Pistol, Knife. (0 | 3)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]6 [​IMG]1
    [​IMG] FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    [​IMG] FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    [​IMG] FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    [​IMG] PATHFINDER DRONBOT Combi Rifle, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 16)
    [​IMG] SWISS GUARD Missile Launcher, Light Shotgun / Pistol, AP CCW. (2 | 69)
    [​IMG] AUXILIA (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle + AUXBOT_1 / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15)
    [​IMG] [​IMG] AUXBOT_1 Heavy Flamethrower / Electric Pulse. (- | 4)
    [​IMG] TECH-BEE (Remote Assistant Level 1, Specialist Operative) Flash Pulse / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)

    6 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    But mostly it was only due to fact his ML was not able to cover whole table, but if you ask how reliably remove Sukuel ML I would only say use HMG Swiss or try to get Buleteer with MM1 within good range (easier said than done).
     
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  5. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead
    Warcor

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    Love it.

    Ok, so Tohaa can be seen as the faction with all those nice, resilient, flexible units and teams. It can also be seen as the faction that can't hack our TAGs.

    I'd go for units that maximize order effectiveness when killing, to go through any ARO pieces and assault troops fast and hard. Then back them up with proper backup and support. Another thing to take advantage of is the link capped at three units - no SSL2, happy Camo time. Example:

    [​IMG] Bang Bang, You Hit The Ground
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]8 [​IMG]2
    [​IMG] DRÃGAO Hyper-Rapid Magnetic Cannon, Heavy Flamethrower / . (2.5 | 94)
    [​IMG] [​IMG] CRABBOT Flash Pulse / Knife. ()
    [​IMG] JOAN OF ARC Lieutenant Spitfire, Nanopulser / Pistol, AP CCW. (1 | 51)
    [​IMG] BULLETEER Spitfire / Electric Pulse. (1 | 23)
    [​IMG] BAGH-MARI (Minelayer) MULTI Sniper Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 28)
    [​IMG] CROC MAN (Forward Observer, Deployable Repeater) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 32)
    [​IMG] LOCUST Boarding Shotgun, Grenades, Drop Bears / Pistol, Shock CCW, Knife. (0 | 30)
    [​IMG] AUXILIA (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle + AUXBOT_1 / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15)
    [​IMG] [​IMG] AUXBOT_1 Heavy Flamethrower / Electric Pulse. (- | 4)
    [​IMG] MACHINIST Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15)
    [​IMG] PALBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
    [​IMG] TECH-BEE (Remote Assistant Level 1, Specialist Operative) Flash Pulse / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    [​IMG] WARCOR (Aerocam) Flash Pulse / Stun Pistol, Knife. (0 | 3)

    6 SWC | 299 Points

    Open in Infinity Army
     
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  6. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Would say that hacking via Makaul DA CCW seems quite potent one...
     
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  7. sgthulka

    sgthulka Well-Known Member

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    I would echo @barakiel and just add a couple of things he didn't make obvious. First, even the Gao Rael are susceptible to surprise shot, which makes the Swiss and Hexa even better than you might at first suspect. That's a weakness of the Tohaa fireteams: no sixth sense.

    Second, Makaul are awesome warbands, but they aren't cheap, they're regular, and they don't have symbio armor. That means they can be a priority target since they can't have mates on them and when you put one down you also eliminate one of the valuable tohaa orders (unlike a lot of cheap warbands, which feel like you spend a lot of time and effort killing only to remove irregular orders in a second group, anyway). And you want to put them down fast, because it really bites to suck heavy flamethrowers in your deployment zone.

    EDIT: Oddly, the unit i've really grown to hate is that jerk baggage dude with the heavy flamethrower. Everyone complains about the Ikadron, but seriously? Unhackable with sensor? Eff that guy.
     
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  8. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    Can I just add one as a non-PanO player?

    You can just outshoot them as PanO. Seriously. I mean, which Tohaa units are the scariest shooters? The Sukeul? The only BS14 Tohaa unit is the Gorgos, and the only MSV2 unit is the Gao-Rael (and he's BS12.)

    Yes, Tohaa are scarier in the reactive turn than some other factions, but does it matter that they have 2 dice at BS13 in ARO when you're Mimetism, ODD or TO in cover? I think the Swiss Guard is really good against them, but hell any Spitfire or HMG in cover with a visual modifier will give Tohaa a bad time.
     
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  9. Ayadan

    Ayadan Knight of the TAG Order

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    I would have said this too. A good old Tikbalang should be enought most of the time to deal with Tohaa. Just be careful if you bring a heavy TAG as they have also K1 combi rifles that just tear TAGs apart in no time.
    Shoot things dead too. It will take you orders the first turn to just wipe out Symbiomates and defensive troops but if those troops are down during the first turn, the second one will be easier as you'll be able to move faster to kill the active troops and gaining terrain. Just remember to come back into your DZ at the end of your turn and fortify it. The farest you are from your ennemy models, the more orders it will costs him to engage your troopers.
     
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  10. s0tek

    s0tek New Member

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    Hi Super,
    Hope it was still a fun game for you.

    From my perspective with Tohaa when I'm deploying I'm looking to try and be able to see units from the start and match lots of ARO's vs one guy, which with your TAG placement let me do quite successfully. So id have many shifted up the deployment with him so he couldn't be as easily seen when he reveals from TO, been a little further back wouldn't have really hurt his effectiveness of guarding that corner but it would mean that he wasn't visible from the taller buildings in my deployment zone, especially since it meant I could engage him with a missile launcher and a sniper that were both outside of 32".

    As for the triads id echo what other people have been saying and try and kill the weaker members, though the Makuals aren't normally the best target for this since there ARO is pretty much always drop 2 smokes at there feet on 16s so its not great odds to beat, the KAMAEL an KAELTAR parts of the links are way more vulnerable. Joan was in an ideal position for this on your T1 as she could have killed off the weaker members of the forward link teams in not many orders.

    Only other thing I can think of would be the list comp that you ended up taking was very suited to T1 as it didn't have a lot of tools to slow me down or control sections of the board so going 1st may have benefited you more than going 2nd.
     
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  11. Superfluid

    Superfluid Welcome to Svalarheima

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    Hahahaa, Busted :)

    Yeah it was a great learning experience, I can't be salty about losing in Infinity because my regular opponent is a senior games designer with a penchant for strategy games, who also plays Imperial Service. So i'm well practiced at fighting uphill.

    Your comment about going first probably I think does ring true. However as a total newb against Tohaa making you deploy first would have given me an insight on what your faction could do. What didn't help was that I only had the one list, I forced playing that list to get experience with the Cutter, but lets not make excuses for being outplayed :)
     
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  12. Superfluid

    Superfluid Welcome to Svalarheima

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    So my list was a 10 order Joan + Cutter list, so it's good to know that this sort of strategy Could work, if there was someone more sensible piloting it. My worry is your list has too many attack pieces though, but it has a very similar shell to mine. I think I see what you're doing though, which is to have enough things to put on to suppression with coordinated orders.
     
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  13. Teslarod

    Teslarod Trebuchet Enthusiast

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    Seems a good opportunity to share the assessment we arrived at after the German Masters.

    Tohaa and to an extent Aleph are very strong in the current Meta. Especially Tohaa perform extremely consistent against the lower end of the spectrum. Part of that is Tohaa being very well suited to soak up a fixed number of Orders in between Symbiomates and Symbioarmour in turn 1. Long story short: assuming average dice a 10 Order list will end up wasting it's entire Order pool to get rid of 2-3 Gao Rael/Sukeul/Rasail with Mates and will be done with the turn, probably without killing more than 2.
    A frontal Assault into the Tohaa's ARO pieces is pretty much exactly what the Tohaa Player wants you to do, even after you've managed to chew through that you'll be faced with cheap Makauls throwing B2 Eclipse Smoke/HFTs in your face. There isn't a single thing that is specifically problematic here it's all of it layered together. In between B2 AROs, the Mate, the 2nd W, several plain old FTF Rolls and ARM rolls at some point stuff will go in favour of the Tohaa Player while you need to work everything for you before you run out of Orders in a frontal engagement.

    First of all important information about Mates:
    Crits bypass Mates and count for the entire shot - i.e. you win a FTF with your Sniper using DA Ammo against a Tohaa with a Mate. One hit is a Crit. The Tohaa can use the Mate do negate both armour saves for the non crit, but still takes one wound and has to make one ARM roll. (just clarificaton - Tohaa players tend to "forget" about that).
    Inactive Symbiont Armour means the Mate is gone as well - if you Crit with a Combi, the Tohaa takes one Wound and if his Symbiont Armour goes inactive that also means no more Mate. Only Rasail, Ectros and Gorgos can really afford to risk making ARM rolls to preserve their Mate.
    Additionally Tohaa doesn't get to roll Guts if a Mate avoids all damage (he does if he eats a Crit wtho). This is important since it means you are guaranteed one Order against the Tohaa without his Mate before he can scurry off to Total Cover.


    Mates and Multiwounds can be dealt with in several ways outside of sheer luck.

    1. Templates
    The most important thing is to get rid of a Triad so whatever you are trying to get rid of stops rolling 2 dice back at you.
    Tohaa's greatest strength is also their fatal weakness. All their Triads as well as the Rasail are weak to templates. For the Triads it's easy, just clip two or more guys and make them Dodge so their Link Bonus doesn't matter. It's not exactly easy to do this with anything else than Shotguns or DTWs but you never know when you get the opportunity for a well placed HRL shot. What you want to try here is to clip a weak member of the Triad so it also affects the important guy in the Triad. The Tohaa Player doesn't particulary care about the lives of his Makauls, Kaeltar or Kamael compared to Gao Rael or Sukeul.

    2. Quantity of Orders
    You're pretty much guaranteed to lose 4 Orders to the Mates, and you'll most likely lose more since you won't win every FTF. 10 Order lists just don't cut it vs well played Tohaa, no matter what you'll need more to do actual damage to their Order Pool.
    The Tohaa on the other hand are going to try to keep their Order pool mostly intact throughout turn 1. Don't let them.

    3. Quality of Orders
    One of the must frustrating things against Tohaa is to chew throught the Mate and then to cause exactly one Wound proceeded by the Tohaa dropping Prone behind Total Cover. Tohaa aren't quite as sturdy as HI and it is important to try to cause 2+ Wounds in a single Order to negate their inherit extra wound. Lets say you have a Fusilier Link with a HMG and a MSR against a Gao Rael Sniper. The HMG is better suited to win the FTF and get rid of the Mate first, but afterwards the MSR is preferable to try and oneshot the Gao Rael in one go.
    Further, Tohaa ARO at B2 is very likely to win against a lackluster attack piece. Having something available that can reliably outshoot even a B2 ARO isn't the most optimal way to deal with them, but the least situational one. A TAG can be

    4. AD
    AD is better than usual against Tohaa. They are pretty much guaranteed to have 2-3 Triads on the board and it is next to impossible for them to hide all their filler troops from AD troops. I recommend an AD troop with a Spitfire to break Triads, go for backshots and pick off out of position cheerleaders.

    5. TO Gotcha
    Always an staple option, but again, very good against Tohaa Triads. As long as the Mate is intact try to get a free ARO against one of the secondary Link Members while the Link Leader is trying to engage something. After Mates are gone, most Tohaa hate to be up against a TO Sniper in addition to their main target. A Swiss Guard ML pieplating an entire Triad has been very effective and pretty easy to set up time and time again.


    PanO specific stuff
    No Hackers means free reign for all our heavy duty troops. Go ham with TAGs and HI, leave the Hackers at home. I fully intend to bring a dedicated anti Tohaa/Ariadna list to the next tournament I attend.
    I don't like going 2nd vs Tohaa with anything less than a Swiss ML if I can help it. Like every Link Tohaa get to carry their close range arsenal of HFTs and Viral Combis on the back of a Mimetic B5 BS13 HMG and Eclipse Smokes into your DZ. Especially the Ecplipse makes them impossible to stop from where they want to go and do what they want to do.
     
  14. Hiereth

    Hiereth AI Artichoke

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    I'm actually quite curious about your list if you'd indulge me. You have lot's of ranged ARO strength, but once things get within the 0 HMG range you are working with combis on Kamaels, is there no intention to ever be that close, if required for frontlines how do you stay strong mid board?
     
  15. s0tek

    s0tek New Member

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    Hi Hiereth,

    It is something that iv noticed in games and do have to play around a little bit, but there don't tend to be many time that it tends to come into play, because the ranged on flamers is aprox 11" people don't tend to want to close in on the triads very often.

    I also find that breaking my own links can be worth it at times with the HMG to setup for next turn but only if I can force them to engage at < 16 .

    An tbh a B5 HMG in its 0 range with Mimi should still beat out most options in face to face if I really have to.
     
  16. ChoTimberwolf

    ChoTimberwolf Artichoken Friend

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    Tohaa Player here, against that List just take TAGs, HIs etc his only AP was the Submachine guns and the missile launcher, so focus ML stay out of Subs range. Last game I was fighting a TAG that had 11 Armor in cover, he rolled on the 4 if my HMG made damage, I got lucky and won but seriously TAGs or HIs in a cover in suppressive fire that covers the objective but are out of sight of the ML makes it hard for Tohaa.
    After that game I pretty much promised myself to always take a K1 combi with me, for the case the enemy got a TAG.
     
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  17. s0tek

    s0tek New Member

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    I wouldn't personally recommend TAGs in any game of Infinity outside of casual play personally, they always feel like 2 many eggs in one basket. In this case my opponent had a cutter but because of this he didn't have a lot of defensive units to stop me walking across the board, one smoke on its head and a Makual can cut them to pieces, especially with the rest of the link providing support.

    Also its not like you know what your opponent is taking before the game starts.
     
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  18. Superfluid

    Superfluid Welcome to Svalarheima

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    In the hands of a better player than I, I could have forseen a situation where having you deploy first would have allowed a smarter cutter placement to close distance on your long range AROs and dice them to death on an active turn.
     
  19. Ayadan

    Ayadan Knight of the TAG Order

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    I don't agree with you about a TAG isn't a competitive model. @daboarder has already given us a detailed thread about playing TAGs in ITS and is known to succeed with them.
    I have followed his advice and since I have won multiple games with my TAGs in tournaments. I'm not yet a master like him with TAGs but I'm known to bring always one at least and to bring destruction with them.
    And I don't talk about my brother and his Marut that wrecks nearly any of his opponent.
     
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  20. Teslarod

    Teslarod Trebuchet Enthusiast

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    While I partially agree and wouldn't recommend a Cutter vs Tohaa, there are viable TAG options.

    The Seraph can pieplate entire Triads with his Auxbot's HFT while forcing multiple FTF rolls with his Spitfire. He can also hunt any member of a Fireteam Prone on a rooftom with relative ease.

    Squalo HGL had some good results for me to get rid of Makuals through Smoke, Rasail bots and by forcing Triads to spread out more and take worse positions.

    The Tik can defend itself very well from Makauls with Mines and Climbing Plus. He also shares the ability to catch seemingly hidden cheerleaders or Triad members. The classic Mine+BS Attack combo is also worth mentioning.
     
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