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Haqqislam in N4

Discussion in 'Haqqislam' started by psychoticstorm, Aug 6, 2019.

  1. Knauf

    Knauf Transhumanist

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    For the purpose of FTF, it's effectively CH2:Camo/ODD that also works against dodge AROs and ignores MSV but is vulnerable to Sixth Sense instead. It also requires additional orders to be spent if you want to make use of the MOD multiple time in the same turn.

    Holoecho L2 seems really useful the more I read about it, but it certainly requires more attention and finesse compared to passive modifier skills.

    I feel that Veteran L1 would nicely round out the Ayyar's profile to make him completely self-sufficient and enable him to walk past jammers.
     
    #81 Knauf, Aug 30, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2019
  2. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Well-Known Member

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    I would love to read a battle report illustrating this. The argument makes sense, but I'm having a hard time seeing how his mobility/gunfighting is better than a camo infiltrator's, especially given the extra point cost. @Solar, can I talk you into posting a battle report next time your Ayyar MVPs?
     
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  3. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    Camo infiltrators can be hemmed in by mines and Perimeter Weapons, the Ayyar just hurls a Holoecho at them!

    Camo infiltrators are 1W weaklings, the Ayyar can tank an ARO for that dash to the objective.

    Camo infiltrators generally have short range weaponry or burst 2 sniper weapons. Ayyar has a Marksman Rifle letting him outrange most common weapons, but still get a +3 when sneaking into an HMG/sniper's +0 range.

    Camo infiltrators are threatened by chain rifles and nanopulsers at short range, the Ayyar can tank them whilst wiping out the target with twin viral pistols.

    Ayyars don't care if your target has any level of MSV, they still shoot just as well!

    Basically an Ayyar can afford to be aggressive in a lot of situations that would be a death sentence for your average skirmisher.
     
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  4. jsuso

    jsuso Well-Known Member

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    Ayyars are pretty neat as they are right know
     
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  5. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    Will do!
     
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  6. Sojourne

    Sojourne Irregular

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    I don't think it's a matter of "Ayyar vs. normal camo infiltrator, which is better?" kind of issue, but the fact that the Ayyar exists as an *option* alongside other camo infiltrators, is good enough for me. I think the Ayyar is fine as he is now.

    I would like some cleaning up of the holoprojector rules though since that took a hell of reading up for me when I was just starting up, but I'm going to have to think a bit more on that before I can comment how.
     
  7. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    Okay, I'm not sure how to word a post, so I'll just address presented points separately, although it's not the most helpful thing to do.

    That's probably the most reliable use for Holo2, which is the fact I cannot make peace with.
    But regardless, in order to get to your point of interest you must expend enough orders, and if you have them, there are likely ways to tackle problems like that differently. I mean, it's gonna be order-intensive, but when you compete with this entire footslogging across the board while not doing anything else thing, you have some leeway.

    Same goes to Chain Rifles / Nanopulsers argument, with the caveat that Ayyar's marker is actually less useful against those than Camo.

    Also, there are often more than one WB, mine and whatever else like that on your way, so you'll have to find another way to deal with most of them, second wound or not. And like I said, you can afford doing so when you don't have to spend a turn just walking.

    Marker layer is also a thing though. Ayyar sort of has it too, but he will also potentially move through more AROs.

    Besides, in Vanilla we have units that can do the same, and depending on what you choose, they will reach the target faster, shoot better, tank nastier AROs etc. All for comparable price.

    Well, we don't have to compare Ayyar to generic infiltrators. Typical Haqq infiltrators have options besides SMGs, SRs and shotguns.
    0 range of HMGs and SRs is a rifle range, you don't need MMR for that, and then weapons like those are usually linked, meaning you don't really want to take on them with your Ayyar - it won't be favourable for him, and order investment you've made to get him into this position probably has better applications than to be risked like that.

    Which is to say "not stellar".
    They do care about links, which unlike MSVs are everywhere and unless N4 radically changes the approach, linking anything with anything else giving all kinds of opportunities to repair Fireteams up to 4 or 5 people to keep SSL2 will become even more of a trend. This is reason number 1 why I am not sold on Ayyar's shooting, the other being his reliance on "consumable" Holo2 state he can otherwise leverage to make those unimpeded movements (unless opponent guesses right).

    An Ayyar needs to be aggressive because he takes orders from objective grabber's support whose job is to ensure your grabber doesn't need to make Hail Marys. Basically, Ayyar solves problems that he himself creates in the first place.

    There are interesting things Ayyar has over his competition, be it more interesting footsloggers in Vanilla or just more conservative playstyle in general. I just wish those things weren't not so gimmicky under current ruleset. Mostly talking about Holo2 rules here. If you are making a unit that is supposed to be Turn 2+ player, giving him something that helps your army to stay in the game up until that point would be nice.
     
    #87 Barrogh, Sep 2, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2019
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  8. Fenrir

    Fenrir Well-Known Member

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    I dont like ramah but I'm playing it these days and one of the biggest porblems with the link teams are the movement. We can mix climing plus + superjump and these things are difficult to play.

    I mean you cant move the ghulam and superjump the kawarij at the same time. Ramah is a complicated but with this it is even more complicated.

    So my point in N4 is that superjump and climing plus count as simple movment.

    What do you think about this? Would this borke the game?
     
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  9. Xeurian

    Xeurian Well-Known Member

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    Speaking in terms of balance... and with this only being a problem with the super customizable link team of crazy points efficiency that is the Ghulam salad-team... I think it's a fair drawback to have these link fillers/toolboxes hold back the super-jumpers. If you need your whole link to super-jump it's way around the board, I don't see a problem with having to pay for super-jump on every member. As it stands, you can still take advantage of super jumping over walls and such to get unexpected angles or negate cover while taking advantage of the full 5-member suite of bonuses, you just don't get to use it as much while moving about the board.

    My issue in regards to this interaction is only in how strange it is thematically. Why can't the rest of the members move while some jump? Because rules.
     
  10. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    I actually agree, but regardless of that I still think that Ramah links are stupid :P
     
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  11. Romiras

    Romiras Member

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    Hey,

    I don’t comment often on the forums, but I just couldn’t pass this topic. For the last year I was playing Qapu Khalqi and I’m going to focus on these guys. Hope somebody from CB will see this and consider making one of the iconic Infinity armies great again :P

    General feedback.
    Fluff wise QK is probably the biggest employer of mercenaries. I certainly don’t understand why some of the new mercenary units are not available to us. We might not need all of them, but the major ones would be nice. That would be so great on many levels:
    • You’d update and balance the iconic sectorial without introducing any new miniatures specially for it. SKUs saved!
    • You’d give devoted QK players like me the reason to buy cool new miniatures AND be happy while doing it!
    • You’d introduce a new style and mixtures of play for Haqqislam faction. That’s a little bit different topic but a lot of players start to be worried that playing Infinity becomes too generic nowadays. It doesn’t matter which faction you play, you’ll get approximately the same choices and style of play. Why do we need so many factions and miniatures if they do the same thing?
    Regeneration has outdated rules. New guys everywhere without it are so much better for the same/less amount of points. Why not to fix this to make these awesome new djanbazan box all the way more attractive? Either let it generate an order in the null state, or let it be automatic check at the start of the turn without order expenditure (if he dies, he dies).

    Now on to specific units/fireteams:
    • Ghulam and Alguacil. Remove ghulam from QK, give core to alguacil and make them our basic light infantry. Let our units which “counts as Ghulam” be “counts as Alguacil” instead. According to the fluff some alguacil units have prolonged contracts with QK — that change would support the lore and make for incredible and unusual armies on the table.
    • Hafza. These guys are incredible. Just let them join the mercenary units. That’ll help to balance the sectorial, won’t be overpower and will prove the exceptional leadership qualities these guys have in the fluff (probably they serve as liaison officers for contractors?)!
    • Sekban. Give the guy with the spitfire the chain colt.
    • Azrail. Again two miniatures with unbelievable sculpts and terrible rules. Either let them join alguacil link, or give them haris (to be able to be accompanied by odalisques)
    • Yuan Yuan. Please remove the booty rule. It’s so annoying and distracting to have to roll for every single guy and then having to write down or remember what he got.
    • Mobile Brigada. Make him a wild card or let him join a core of Alguacils at least.
    • Rafiq. Please let us have the red fury option too.
     
  12. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    Well, they are.

    For the most part, QK mercs are either thematically tailored to fit a historical reference of an army that also belongs to Haqq, or pretty much pointless. Which ones do you think QK needs?

    Let's give everything to everyone! You'd give every Infinity player a reason to buy all the cool miniatures and be happy!
    /s

    I'd rather prefer that armies keep a strong theme rather than becoming mishmash of random stuff CB is desperate to sell.

    So... You admit that is is something that people worry about and yet suggest to push for the further generalization, calling it a part of what makes your idea "great on so many levels"?

    Needs to be optional, otherwise we are screwed of good opportunity to use our docs. Again.

    No. This is so bad I don't even know where to begin. From algs easily being second worst basic infantry in the game to them not supporting the theme to ghulam providing great profiles we need to them being, you know, Haqq unit.

    Or a reason for entire unit to exist at all, that would be good too.

    Our local manufacturer of various misc stuff offers sets of booty / metachemistry markers, using a publicly available .pdf as a template. You could use something like that.
    While it's still extra bookkeeping and even more crap littering the table, it makes things easier. A bit.
     
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  13. Fenrir

    Fenrir Well-Known Member

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    Guys do you feel the same about basic impersonation?

    I mean it is frustrating to play against alien factions, especially when it is into a tournament, normally toha and EC are played a lot (obviously) something that the impersonation in some lists is far behind, paying your 30 points for a ghulam with cybermask.

    If you do not start first you have to deploy it super defensive since it discovered and shoots usually dies with the first order.

    I know that this Lore and all that is good, but in terms of the game it is a disadvantage if you want to play them and you meet aliens.

    In torunaments you only go with 2 list but you need them for 3 or 5 misions I cant go 1 with impersonations and 1 without them because every list must do his work.

    In conclusion i think this rule needs a touch or pay less points for fidays because of that (some ideas).

    What do you guys think? its only me?

     
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  14. Errhile

    Errhile A traveller on the Silk Road

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    Not a tournament player myself, but I have no problem with Basic Impersonation. Either do not take a Fiday wherever you expect to run into aliens, or bear with limited effectiveness of it.
    After all, you still get the deployment part of it, and it isn't any worse at hiding your IFF than Cybermask program.

    Also, comparing Hasasin Fiday to a Speculo Killer, Fiday gets better CC and WIP, while Speculo gets better BS.
    Speculo gets an Automedikit.
    Speculo gets Shasvasti where Fiday gets Religious.
    Speculo packs a Combi where Fiday packs Rifle + LSG (IMO a major point for the Fiday, given the distances they have to work over!).
    Speculo gets MonoCCW, Fiday gets AP CCW.

    Having taken that into account, note that comparable loadouts for a Speculo are 5pts and 1 SWC more expensive.
    IMO, Fiday is still a sound choice.
    Though I admit, it would be damn nice to have a Fiday Minelayer :D
     
  15. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    I always felt there is no sound gameplay reason behind Basic Impersonation, and that's probably just a flavour thing. Considering that marker layer is a thing way bigger than any +1 to bs/wip, it's pretty annoying to me. Oh well.
     
  16. Fenrir

    Fenrir Well-Known Member

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    @Errhile this werent about comparing speculo with fiday.

    When you say this: Either do not take a Fiday wherever you expect to run into aliens, or bear with limited effectiveness of it.

    Is the point of my issue because I go often on torunaments, always fight against 1 or 2 alien facctions because they are a little bit strong right now. I cant play a porifle that I like because is vs aliens, if you play it, its "useless" 30 points.

    This game is dice game its depents on luck but I have to be lucky with the pairings too? I wanna play my profiles dont matter if its alien or not (that is for lore, not for gameplay). At least when you play againts aliens they need a buff vs them for this reasons.

    (For example is like saying Avatar vs haqqislam dont have ODD cause "X" reasons, its not fair, I dont want to pay my 30 points for a prenerf unit that needs to do something in the game because I am against aliens)
     
  17. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, lots of units have counters. But if my unit gets countered, I want it to be because my opponent was smart and brought the right tools to beat me. It feels weird that fidays get countered automatically just by my opponent's choice of faction.

    That said, imp-2 fidays are still pretty good. Not 30 points good, but pretty good.
     
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  18. Errhile

    Errhile A traveller on the Silk Road

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    @Fenrir I've compared Fiday to Speculo to see what is the points cost difference against a troop with impersonation plus.

    Also, somehow you aren't proteating all Combined TAGs being Immune to Possession, which is there as much for fluff reasons as in case of Fiday's Basic Impersonation.

    Yea, sure: maybe N4 smoothes that over.
    Maybe not.
    We're yet to see.

    Also, @QueensGambit - Fidays don't get countered by alien factions. They lose one level of their Impersonation state, but the rest of it does work just fine.
     
  19. Fenrir

    Fenrir Well-Known Member

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    I think the same as @QueensGambit. they get countered because faction choices. @Errhile you are paying a lot of points, that you cant use efectively against that factions .

    When I choose to put a fiday in a list is for destroying enemy lines and take down lieutenant if I go first. If I go second they need to kill her but requires a lot of orders. but alines dont have the -6 at discovering and just have 1 level is frustrating. So you cant put her agressive way that you always put against humans, is like throwing these points to the rubbish. I think that is the work of a fiday kill some cheap units or cc some especific targets, and in reactive turn the enemy spends many orders on them.

    In conclusion if you go second against aliens deploy fiday insite your deployment zone and feel good!
     
  20. Papa Bey

    Papa Bey Clueless Wonder. Still.

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    I really hate it when I bring several throwers of smoke, but my opponent brought several MSV2 visors...
     
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