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Haqqislam in N4

Discussion in 'Haqqislam' started by psychoticstorm, Aug 6, 2019.

  1. Lazarus0909

    Lazarus0909 Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    For QK, yeah I'd agree with that for Odas. Also just straight up give Odas 360 and SSL2 - the choice between them is really weird and annoying (it's not like it's a deployment skill like the Nahab has where it makes sense to pick between the two).

    I wouldn't mind a couple of other subtle tweaks (remove the 0.5 SWC cost on Janissary Lt, give the Hawwa Sniper Specialist Operative but stay same cost, ARM 4 and BS 13 on the Iggy operator, new Scarface + Cordelia profile in QK, etc). Alguaciles + Brigada should mixed link too, as it'd bump up the utility of both profiles in QK beyond the Lt profiles. And to reiterate what others have said, clearly the Azrails need some help.

    But yeah, if we're wishlisting, I'd also love a character Oda someday with a light flamer, specialist operative, and better CC stats :P
     
  2. Papa Bey

    Papa Bey Clueless Wonder. Still.

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    My comment pre-dated the announcement of N4.

    But my rationale remains the same. Corvus Belli has has 4 years and change to make alterations. But didn't. Now that Hafza are um... on vacation there is zero incentive for CB to devote any energy to them at all. From a bloodless business perspective, they should want us to forget all about them and move on to whatever the new hotness is. That's what makes them money in the end.

    I could be wrong.

    I would be pleased to be.
     
  3. AssaultUnicorn

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    It would be interesting if Azrails could have Veteran L2. That would give them more incentive to be used as dedicated tanks or ARO pieces (plus it is lore friendly). Or give them Courage/Religious and allow them to join special core/haris fireteams.
     
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  4. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    Before we sprinkle forums with our wet dreams about NWI and Shock Immunity, CB must understand what do they want from "passive" durability and its price in points. Like:

    - Do they want an ability to apply Doctor to downed trooper as the only real difference between 2W and SI+NWI (a few even more niche cases notwithstanding) and is it really worth almost 10 points per model or so;
    - Tbh they should probably settle down with the cost of that ability to take hit and keep going since this entire SI+NWI smells of an experiment to see if price of that second wound is warranted at all. What CB are doing with O12 right now may or may not suggest they are continuing their tests*.
    - While we are at it, saves may need a look at them.

    Like I said before, discussing faction specifics when so much may or may not happen to base game seems to be a bit hasty.

    * - alternatively, that can suggest that train of selling new stuff through power creep has no brakes and rumors about CB testers not giving a damn are not unwarranted.
     
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  5. theGricks

    theGricks Well-Known Member

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    The problem with disallowing you to doctor NWI is that Steel Phalanx and Aleph runs on that ability. It would recost the entire faction almost.
    I just think immunities should be more expensive.NWI+SI should be ALMOST as much as a full second wound. Because it almost is.I am not a fan of CB using their own point cost loopholes to make things work.
     
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  6. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    I apologize for not being clear.

    What I mean is that 2W model that got incapacitated by wounds is Unconscious and can be recovered by doctor (and also continues to take space in Combat Group and other minor stuff like that). SI+NWI model that got incapacitated by wounds is Dead (although it can still be healed after taking a single wound).

    That's pretty much the only difference between them. And apparently that difference costs enough to be seen as "CB gaming their own point system to minmax profiles".

    Well, as you've said:
    But my original point was "does CB really thinks that 2W, as well as other stats that describe passive survivability, should cost what it costs right now?".

    Because that may or may not be the case.
     
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  7. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    I think pretty much all Haqq units are really solid to great. The only ones I'd change would be Zhayedan, and I'd change some of the link structures in RTF to make Hortlak and Zhayedan more appealing.
     
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  8. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    A Janissary or Hortlak with Haris would be a really nice option, especially with how cool the new model looks.
     
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  9. havocfett

    havocfett Well-Known Member

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  10. Knauf

    Knauf Transhumanist

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    The Ayyar appears to be in a rather awkward spot right now, so I was wondering how and why you think he should be changed come N4.

    Here are some ideas I have come up with to make him more distinguishable and attractive. I don't think he should have all of these skills, but these are rather a selection of things I believe he might make good use of in any combination:

    - Forward Deployment L1/L2
    This would help him get into a position to make use of his specialist role. As it stands now, the Ayyar is very order intensive and needs to walk up the board to get where he needs to be. This get's even worse if you need to re-activate your Holoecho state multiple times.

    - Tactical Awareness
    A nice little boost to make him more order efficient. Same context as above.

    - Full Auto Lvl 1
    I'm not a huge fan of this skill from a design perspective, but I can see it being useful on single pieces who do not already have superior firepower and need a little boost to their offensive.
    Take away the Rifle from his first loadout and give it FA LvL 1. Combined with his trademark SSL2, the Ayyar could prove to be a real menace on short to middle range: Shoot things with the B2 E/Mitter to isolate/immobilize a target, then get into 8" and hammer them with B4 Viral Pistols.

    - Scavenger
    A nice and flavourful skill that somewhat fixes the subpar weapon loadouts of the Ayyar.
    Also fits nicely with his fluff as a lone operative who has to depend on himself to survive.

    - Veteran Lvl1
    The Ayyar is the lone wolf operative, so this one is self explanatory. Gameplay-wise it's a nice distinguishing factor considering the recent proliferation of Jammers.
     
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  11. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    Can't mods just move posts to this thread and nuke that one you're bringing your content from? Pretty sure they can.

    Anyway, in case they won't bother, here's my answer from that thread:

     
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  12. Knauf

    Knauf Transhumanist

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    I've reported the other thread, so I'm hoping they will eventually :)
     
  13. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    The Ayyar is fantastic as it is.
     
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  14. Knauf

    Knauf Transhumanist

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    I tend to struggle a bit with him, but I really want to make him work. How do you get your points' worth out of him?
     
  15. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    He's regularly one of my highest performers. Mobile, good short to mid range fighter, specialist, durable (especially for Haqq). I use him as a reserve, second and third turn, when he's got the space to manoeuvre because he's not being outranged by enemy SWC. As a midfield hunter and objective grabber, he excels. In the meantime he covers a flank from drop troopers and such by putting out a potential ARO without needing to be vulnerable using holoprojector. Then I push up, kill solo troops, Haris teams, broken up cores etc.
     
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  16. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    Can you please elaborate on this? To me his MOV and no special deployment/movement skills look like a baseline. Unless you mean Move-Moving in front of basic ARO piece relying on second wound every now and then.
     
  17. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    Mobility is not just how fast you are, special deployment or what skills you have that let you avoid terrain, but rather how much ground you can cover per order spent and be in a position to do something at the other end.

    In this sense, the ability to avoid damage is a key element. Camo markers are mobile because camo markers are able to advance across open ground, in view of an ARO, provoke a hold or discover, then move again. They can cover ground without risk of loss. Troops with heavy firepower can do the same: they can walk into the open, shoot, still win the firefight, and thus they've moved further per order than a trooper with inferior firepower that has to remain in cover or not even take that path at all.

    Because the Ayyar has the Holoprojector and because it has accurate midrange fire with 2 W (so can soak a mine, or a chain rifle, or a random stray crit or whatever) I consider it mobile because I can send the Ayyar on paths other troops can't risk. That's an important part of mobility, where can you go without risk of losing your guy? The Ayyar can dash across open ground, move past unknown markers etc.
     
  18. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    Being able to safely detonate mines and Perimeter Weapons with a holoecho also makes him more mobile.
     
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  19. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    Tbh being no frills 13 BS with B3 gun at best is far from being decent gunfighter in my book, but I can accept the argument about Holo's pseudomarker capable of giving you a one really good shot, especially when you don't care if opponent delays as you can just continue on your merry way. Tanking mines is cool though.

    My problem with Ayyar is that starting in the middle of the board and having a real marker state is a more reliable source of saved orders than those 0,5 orders every now and then mostly coming from your opponent being protective about his ARO piece (???) or because you can Move-Move in the front of ARO, take a wound and keep going.

    And you pay quite some points (by Haqq standards) for the privilege. I do really think some extra unusual functionality is warranted before it stops being mostly suboptimal choice. I would prefer some fun one as opposed to slapping bruteforce skills onto everything which you can't go wrong with, like TA, FA or what have you.

    In fact, there is exactly one TA I would ever want on a Haqq unit - one on a mostly vanilla Doc with Irregular training. Just to allow us being less stingy about actually doctoring stuff. Would go well with future Khanate sectorial where I expect to see some cheap stuff that is otherwise hardly ever worth bringing back.

    But Vanilla already has enough of docs, so w/e. Maybe sectorial-specific profile? Would be nice.

    This is, however, a wishlisting that doesn't have direct relevance to N4.
     
    #79 Barrogh, Aug 30, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2019
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  20. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    Surprise Shot L2 isn't no frills and people overestimate the extent to which you need frills to be an effect gunfighter.