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Haqqislam in N4

Discussion in 'Haqqislam' started by psychoticstorm, Aug 6, 2019.

  1. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    While new edition is probably a time to review units, I wouldn't go too much into that without understanding what are the N4 core changes.
     
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  2. theGricks

    theGricks Well-Known Member

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    Personally I really like where Haqqislam is at. With Ramah added we have more unit to choose from, and more diversity so in Vanilla we are not reliant on Piece Trading anymore which is a tough skill. I think points are good, if we rework how criticals work and if we make Jammers Comms Equipment, that will really fix the perceived imbalances in that change.

    If I really wanted something? More midfield specialist options. I don't know why Farzans dont have a KHD, and why Tuaregs do not have a SMG HKD option. Another real AD:Airborn Deployment troop would be nice, but not necessary.
     
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  3. Xeurian

    Xeurian Well-Known Member

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    Rather than going into reviewing units to understand the core changes, I hope the focus is going into those core changes themselves.
     
  4. Fenrir

    Fenrir Well-Known Member

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    Well if you see the Tierlist for ITS10 you would see that haqqislam is in position 22 hassasin 23 and qapu 25 of 32 factions that are inside the game. It is only a number but I think it is significant to see that the faction needs some changes.

    To win a tournament with any haqqislam facction you must have "luck" and you have to sweat. And for example aleph is like always winning without effort.

    I am just saying this can't be good for the game all factions need good things and bad things(for example Azrail 41 points ap hmg
    If we compare the S5 of any faction we will see that ours goes alone instead the others for 10-15 points plus they go full equip, It's just an example but this kind of things happen a lot in haqqislam).

    They need balance.
     
  5. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    I'm not quite sure what are you trying to say here.
    But I doubt that Azrails make any blip on the radar of tier list creators because in order to affect anything they must be put on tables first :P
     
  6. Cannon Fodder

    Cannon Fodder Well-Known Member

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    A lot depends on the new rules, but a couple things on my wishlists in the past were
    • I was hoping RTF was to have more regeneration, as a bio engineered faction I would of loved being able to coordinated order regen and bring back a good chunk of my losses. If QK gets reactivated in N4 the Djanbzan could be core of a regen sectoral, just needs a couple specialist solos.
    • Make an advanced regen so its like Auto-hatch and free at the beginning of the turn, make L3 so you get the order also.
    • In general make it so coordinated order with AD worked instead of losing all the off the reserve orders
    • I was disappointed that QK lost the azrail linkable options while other factions got it. That was a little bit of an overbalancing. Considering most other sectorals got stronger, QK was the only one (i saw) to take a step back. Which I think lead to its lack of play.
    • Put saladin in any sectoral. Preferably not just a o-12 one when they get thier sectoral.
    • Lasiq specialists, or a climbing plus wildcard (assuming they still have a fireteam).
    • I like the halqa and mechanical deployment. under used because its not in a sectoral.
    HB has a good flavor. While not super strong the style was interesting. The lack of MSV was piece of the flavor. QK was a good foil to that. Relatively strong, and had a couple tricks, and not just be a blunt weapon. Didn't play at all the same as HB. By playing the 2 you had a faction with 2 very different play styles. RTF I found doesn't balance with either, and to get a different style you need to switch factions completely. I find the Super jump is the only real new trick you get with them.

    I sort of miss the faction purity from before. Now you need to split amungst multiple factions to get a couple play style options. I know CB did the change to boost interest\sales, but found it more straight forward before. If you compare it to malifaux their M1 had the crews set up as: buy a master and their related models, and you had a mostly closed set. As new masters came out they got stronger than the old ones. It was very apparent that book1 crews lost to book 2, and died miserably to book3. Their re-balance made it so it was less about specific master synergy and more tool box model selection. N2 and early N3 infinity was purely a toolbox (pick a model for role), now its moving towards synergy (predefined models working together). A little synergy is nice, but don't make it too scripted. Malifaux crews were 85% scripted to maximize synergy. Infinity N3.5 is now 30-40% scripted based on sectorals.
     
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  7. theGricks

    theGricks Well-Known Member

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    That is...not even close to true.

    I respectfully disagree that there is some kind of tier list for Infinity because that is not useful in anyway. Haqqislam has all of the tools at this stage to succeed. I hate to add anecdotal evidence but considering the mid atlantic is home to 4 of the USA top 10, here's the following: They have a slightly higher learning curve than other factions, but they are extremely strong. Considering They placed very highly at the satellite for Baltimore Brawl 2018 (HB came in first, Vanilla was around 11, and I personally as HB came in at 25, out of a total of 60 players).

    There is no "Tiers" in Infinity for factions at this point, it is very flat. Most of a win or a loss comes from player understanding of the opponent, the objectives, and their list/units.

    Secondly, what a lot of folks do is compare units to other similar units to other factions. Balance is not done by a per unit basis. Balance is done by the unit and other interfaction combinations and skills and unit abilities.

    I don't want to derail the conversation any more, but Tier lists are objectively bad for Infinity, and Haqqislam has a LOT going for it right now.
     
  8. onko

    onko New Member

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    • Points rebalance is my main wish... make Ghazis more appropriately costed, same fo Zhayedan, and other units/loadouts that are barely used
    • As others mentioned. Auto-medikits and Regeneration should not cost an order, even their names pretty much imply automatic function.
    • Slightly re-work Ramah. The fireteam options are a mess (Namurr with Janissaries? What, why... not even a lore reference)
    Otherwise I just hope the game as a whole is not dumbed down, but only streamlined.
     
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  9. havocfett

    havocfett Well-Known Member

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    Automedikit/Regen and, as a result, the Non-Marksman Zhay profiles, are kind of a liability. Some profiles could probably use a pass for modern rules and design, and I wouldn't be opposed to a Fat2 rework/crit changes/spreading SMGs and newer rules that largely didn't make it into QK and Hassassin.

    Reconsidering a lot of the more orientalist fluff in Haqq and related factions would be greatly appreciated. The entire 'actually we had Muslim Martin Luther' thing plays into unfortunate stereotypes and islamophobic narratives hurled at muslims in the real world. Adjusting it wouldn't hurt the faction and would make it a lot more comfortable for Muslim players. Also it would play less like a Sam Harris piece. Just, like, let the Hassassins be Shi'a it's fine.

    Removing some of the seraglio imagery in Druze and with the Odalisques, and another cleanup pass on the Nazarova twins would also be nice.
     
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  10. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Is there anything that says the Hassassins/Iranian population on Bourak aren't Shi'a? I thought it was more just that sectarian conflicts didn't really follow with the migration to Bourak.

    I won't say anything about the Odalisques or Nazarova twins, but the Druze Society is specifically portrayed as a criminal organization, them having debauched dens of iniquity makes sense.
     
  11. the huanglong

    the huanglong Well-Known Member

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    Do you mean because one completely overshadows the other, statwise?
     
  12. havocfett

    havocfett Well-Known Member

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    It's implied by the fluff about the Search for Knowledge being a new approach to Islam that throws out the Sunnah and Hadith. The way it's written implies that the majority of Islamic theology, practice, and thought gets thrown out which, though I suspect the writers didn't realize this, would include Shi'as, Sunnis, and Sufis.

    Like, that in specific throws out an enormous amount of stuff including basics like 'how does prayer work' and 'how does the pilgrimage work' that are necessary for basic functionality. The background as a whole conflates political and economic issues with religious ones and throws out a lot of core assumptions in a misguided attempt to provide a Martin Luther figure.

    It's a move that's alienating to a lot of Muslims and is incompatible with having existing strains of Islam in the setting of Infinity. More than that, it isn't actually necessary for Haqq to be portrayed as it is. A pan-islamic political movement or non-sectarian strain of theology would work fine for what CB wants to do and be a lot less alienating.

    Debauched dens of iniquity is fine, specifically invoking Orientalist art like The Snake Charmer or one of the interminable paintings of harems is less so. It invokes the work of Orientalist artists like Jean-Leon Gerome, which in turn evokes a long history of Orientalism and its effects on how Muslims and Muslim Cultures are viewed.

    The issue is less 'sexy women' and more 'the specific way sexy women are invoked has a pretty terrible history involving a surprising amount of corpses'.

    Yeah, the profiles are a little unbalanced and I feel like there should be incentive to team them up. Maybe they'll get a Duo in Khanate.
     
    #32 havocfett, Aug 11, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2019
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  13. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Gutier's grasp on Christian or Buddhist theology isn't so firm either, amusingly, but in any case I doubt the fluff itself will be changed in a new edition.


    Is it invoking it, though? The catgirls brought me more to mind of fanservice-y anime/manga. Without them, it seems like some places I've gone to buy drugs irl.
     
  14. SmaggTheSmug

    SmaggTheSmug Well-Known Member

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    How many people is "a lot of"? 10? 20? 20 000? How many of those play or would play Infinity?
    Just because you're "offended" doesn't mean every other Muslim is or that there is a problem with the game. The problem may be with you. I bet most Muslim Infinity players aren't offended, at most a little amused at some errors, much like Chinese speaking people are.
    Haqqislam is Islamic Golden Age mixed in with a bit of Dune and Hassassins because Hassassins are cool. Not many miniature games reference Islamic history at all. But it's still 170+ years into the future sci fi, it doesn't need to reflect the real world. I mean, when was the last time the Pope called for a crusade?
     
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  15. mazzacheammazza

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    1. Rebalance our visor 2 option. The new muktar trump all options, while all should have his space. Indeed, mukthar could lose msv2 and will not be regrettes, IF the other visor will be recosted
    2. Poor lasiq, fix they price, now they are the poor muktar
    3. Love for our azrail. Either some cool link option, swc discout, or an extra skill
    4. Remove the fat2. I hate the rule, never use the profile and have no problem.
    5. Fix zayedan. Make them only haris but all profile have mm lvl2
    6. Hafza look so bland now. Add some skill
    7. Odalisque need some change to feel more bodyguards.
     
  16. ik3rian

    ik3rian Anti-Ariadnian Specialist

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    Well, as for the suggestions:

    - i dont think we need Boarding Shotgun Ghazi, i cant see the practical point in paying 5pts more and using him
    - we are probably years away from Khanate, so we could use some freshening of the Halqas. They are quite situational, maybe apart from Doc, but then again for his cost you can get Ghulam Doc with bot.
    Sadly, i have no ideas for them, but they are a beautiful empty canvas. Also, i would kinda like to have deployable repeater as a loadout on them, that would make a nice competition for Hunzakut
    - Regeneration on Djanbazans and Asawira. Honestly, Asawira can take care of herself, i dont think they need in the form as it is currently, alltough it at least gives Shock immunity to DJBs. Either skill should be changed or dropped from them, but the latter could make Sekbans less viable, as the price gap would close...
    -... which brings us to Automedkits and Zhayedans. They should get rid of it, but they still wouldnt be played as a core in RTF, with Khawarij plus Ghulams as the cheaper and more lethal competition. Haris would be more viable tho.
    - Sticking with RTF, Al Fasid could use some help in this sectorial too. Maybe we could help both units with creating special fireteam core with 1 Fasid and 4 Zhayedans? Maybe some FTO profiles with TacticAwareness for the big boy?
    That would be a nice link IMO. Considering a small price drop with kicking theAuyokits off, they would cost around 160-170pts, with scary aros (MML2 Breakers and Sniper), specialist Doc, and a Fasid active piece. Thats 5 veterans, so you can make a Khawarij haris with Lt Spitfire and not be scared.
    - i yearn for another profile on Najjarun, like Light Shotgun and Blitzen or Contender. Could give him some more use than standing behind the Maggie or TR bot
    - Ayyar and Yasibir, profiles that dont see much of the use in both sectorial and vanilla. I think refreshing thwir ammo types on their weapons would be cool, Multi Rifles would look good on them.
    - just give us 5th Ghulam in HB, pweety pweas
    - MBrigada in Qapu still doesnt have a flavour. You would think that ava1 HI with Multis and Flamers could be able to link with other units.

    I think thats all that strikes my eyes now.

    EDIT: added few more words about Zhayedan and Fasid.
     
    #36 ik3rian, Aug 13, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2019
  17. Brokenwolf

    Brokenwolf Well-Known Member

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    While I am happy with the Ayyar, I could see Forward Deployment working with his fluff. I feel that people don't value Holo 2 as much as I do.
     
  18. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Brisk antipodean

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    It would be a nice quality of life change given his various weapon loadouts, that's true.
     
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  19. theGricks

    theGricks Well-Known Member

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    Ayyar with FD1 would definitely bump him up a notch on his capabilities and role.
     
  20. Errhile

    Errhile A traveller on the Silk Road

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    What I'd like to see is some multi-Wound staying power for Hassassins. As of now, Hassassins seem to depend on cheap Irregular models for speed bump / staying power ("self-propelled sandbags" is such a nasty job description...). Which is not always a viable build.

    At the very least, an S5 fire support HI would do (is it that much of a problem to hire an Al Fasid, or call in a favour and have an Azra'il assigned to the Intelligence's strike team? Red Veil fluff showed us how to covertly deploy one of these, you just need a portaloo...). Though I wouldn't protest a TAG either...