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Happy Thread : Liu xing!

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by ObviousGray, Aug 7, 2018.

  1. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    Edit: I've thought better of continuing down this road again.

    @Mahtamori I was actually quite keen on the BSG. What don't you like about it?

    I very much doubt we'd get a KHD AD heavy infantry.

    Because of the existence of combined army, I'm always just a little less excited for KHD (or hacking device in general) heavies anyway. Going straight to unconscious hurts.
     
    #461 Alphz, Nov 19, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2018
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  2. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    In this situation, being a fake HI actually helps. Maestro sends the model to unconscious state, guess who doesn't care about being unconscious because he can trigger NWI off this.
     
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  3. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    How many times do I need to say how easy it is to cover your entire DZ in a Hacking Area with ~35pts of models? Basic Zanshi/Fusiler/whatever hacker and 2x 8Pt repeaterbots. Hacker stands in the middle, repeaterbots about 12" to the left and right.
     
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  4. SpectralOwl

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    In my experience, terrain tends to mess up this neat placement and the Hacker itself is a substantial vulnerability in the network. However, it doesn't take much more than this to cover most DZs, and a second Hacker anywhere on the table that can't be seen at the same time as the Basic Hacker will give a non-Stealth Hackable unit in their Deployment Zone a bad time. Your message about how easy it is to prepare a hacking defense is certainly understood, it seems like most discussion in the thread is directed at solving the hacking problem.

    However, I don't actually see people filling their Deployment Zones with repeater coverage deliberately yet, usually they're aiming for more efficient Flash Pulse AROs or preparing good attack lanes with their repeater-carrying bots (Tunguska being the exception thanks to Fast Pandas, Securitate repeater etc.). If my opponents have to start giving up their turn 1 roadblocks to keep a Liu Xing that I may have out of their DZ, that sounds like a win for me as every other piece on the board now has an easier time moving up the table.
     
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  5. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    I agree that most people are not YET deploying models for maximum repeater coverage.

    But it's so incredibly cheap to have that even IA can pull it off in the 16-order combat group list I've been threatening people with (you replace one Weibing with a Zanshi hacker).

    I figure it will take a max of 3 games against a Liu Xing before that becomes their standard YJ deployment.
     
  6. Sedral

    Sedral Invincible Officier

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    @Section9 For a moment here i was living in a wonderful world where the Liu-xing wasn't hackable :cry:
     
    #466 Sedral, Nov 20, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2018
  7. SpectralOwl

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    That world lives on in the hearts of every Ariadna player. Find them, and show them why they really should bring that Wardriver instead of more gosh-darned Camoflage.
     
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  8. Maksimas

    Maksimas Maxi

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    Bullying Ariadna is always fun. And my specialty, since the local meta is basically 40% Ariadna.
     
  9. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    If you're relying on the basic hacker protecting you, you will now also need to deploy in a way that covers him/her with multiple AROs lest the bomb drops on them.

    I think there is a psychological game to be played if your opponent is going to rely on midfield hackers, as they become perfect targets for zhencha.
     
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  10. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Well, the AD AHD are even less useful than an AD KHD would be, simply because the ARO hacks of opportunity are denied when off table. To be fair, I'd be happy to compromise with AP Mines. It can't jump through Repeaters, but it opens up different griefing opportunities at similar ranges.

    I'm having doubts about the BSG profile simply because the explode jump and the hackable trait combined means I can very well see that the Louie would be deploying further away from targets so that they can't take full advantage of the BSG's rangeband and would have more use for the MRifle's or Spitfire's +3 at 8-16 to better clear Repeater REMs and flanked fireteam members.
     
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  11. Mc_Clane

    Mc_Clane Zhànzhēng bùzhǎng
    Warcor

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    You should be a god damn mastermind that kisses the top spots over every tournament it plays. The rest of the players are so lame on your eyes, Each strategy non sanctioned by your majesty is so dumb. It pains you to see us, the rest of the commoner mortals, taking crappy decisions or suggesting something will go on a way you wouldn't say...

    Wait... your not even on the ITS database! that means you didn't play even one miserable tournament during this season!

    Get out of your high throne your majesty! and learn some manners about how to treat and respect other people.

    I don't see you making reports giving us feedback about the bad performance of New troops. You just stick to theoretical worst case scenario and keep repeating your half brainwashing dogmas without actual game experience with the intention of discrediting and insulting other people.
     
  12. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    If you want to read into it like that, go ahead, I really don't care. The fact is the battle reports I am reading are badly flawed, and the people praising the Liu Xing are not playing against players that are actively defending against it effectively. Now if this observation insults you, then that's your problem. Again, I don't care.

    I don't see how you think the fact that the local meta hasn't organised any season X events yet is at all relevant to my analysis of the issues the Liu Xing has. Would you feel better if I told you the last time I played the player currently ranked 12th on the worldwide ranking for season X at a tournament, I beat him, because I could prove that to you if you want. Would that help you accept what I'm saying about the Liu Xing is correct without it making you feel inadequate about your e-peen?

    Yes, because there's no point playing the unit yet until I have the rest of the tools that drop with IA to finalise my opinion on the unit. Right now at this moment though I will guarantee you it has really bad problems that stem from hackability, HI vulnerabilities, and cost. On top of this the unit is poorly optimised and statted for its intended job in a vacuum.
     
  13. Mruczyslaw

    Mruczyslaw AROnaut

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    I belive I should You tell it as fellow Warcor.
    Well... There are communities, large as countires (but in Europe) that thinks that ITS ranking and ITS tournaments are worthless.

    Why you ask?

    Because there were whole seasons when on shots/leagues won rankings. Or when K was countned bad and You got more points for new player than player with low ELO. What CB done about it? NOTHING.
    There are communities tht thinks that key to success in ITS system is to buy more codes. Like pay to win. And... They are kind of right.
    I dont want to defend this guy. But maybe, MAYBE, he participated in tournaments that werent in ITS. Brcause... ITS is kind of joke;) And CB does nothing about it, because it sells. It makes perfect illusion of competetive system. You are Warcor, You saw our feedback and document released, right? Feedback about Xenotech made up during IP without any testing? All of it? Bad joke Hellois is resposible of. Like FAQ/Errata.

    So MAYBE, just MAYBE guy was participating in tournamenst. Very competetive ones. Not in ITS, because each competetove community recognise ITS as joke? Yes, no? I dont know. I give him some doubt though.
     
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  14. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Coming across as an asshole is still coming across as an asshole.

    And when the forum's raging asshole (ME!) is calling you out on being an ass, you might want to listen, @Triumph
     
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  15. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Hah, I don't care. The battle reports I have read have been bad, none of them have dealt with an opponent who actively understands how to defend against the drop troop, and none of them have put up any decent argument about why the crippling problems the liu xing has can be ignored. Instead what we've been getting are suggestions that are absolute nonsense, like "shoot an Interventor with a sniper rifle." who on earth leaves an Interventor out where you can snipe them?

    "This battle report is why the Liu Xing is great!"

    "That battle report is terrible and full of bad mistakes, it doesn't prove anything either way."

    "My ego is damaged and you hurt my feelings."

    "I'm not here to discuss your ego, that battle report is terrible and full of bad mistakes."

    Now if there is one that I missed across one of the various threads here that doesn't fall under that category, by all means somebody link it because it is entirely possible I haven't read every single page or skimmed it and forgot to come back to it.
     
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  16. SpectralOwl

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    @Triumph, you are kinda getting toxic. Your opinions and experience are helpful, but your use of personal insults and swearing is flat-out against forum rules. I've personally decided to stop responding to you in this and other threads, but if people keep carrying on like this an admin will lock the thread, like what happened during the Uprising.

    For what it's worth, I understand that the Liu Xing has real problems against Hacking, but for as long as my opponents keep leaving gaps in their Repeater coverage I will exploit it for maximum damage, which is a valid and powerful use of the unit. I'm expecting my regular opponent to have very heavy Repeater coverage next time I play against him due to a Rebot purchase, so there's a good chance I'll be using the Liu Xing in one of its other roles, coming on during turn 2 or 3 into a midfield cleared of major ARO threats to remove mid-range opposition from behind, then secure objectives.

    I don't consider the Hacking issue "crippling" though, nobody ever said the Garuda was rubbish because it is Hackable. Against heavy Hacking investment it will be an honestly poor pick and won't be able to rampage in the DZ with much more than a token defense as @Section9 pointed out, but it will be a terrifying prospect for Ariadna or Tohaa and will usually be able to fight in the midfield as a versatile specialist or by coming from unexpected angles, outside the Repeater minefield within the DZ.

    My general analysis is that I'd take it maybe one in three games, or in one of the two lists at a tournament. It has vulnerabilities and shortcomings, but the MULTI Rifle Specialist Operative can complete half a Classified Deck by himself even on Extreme Mode and has good value as a killer that doesn't cost SWC. Most importantly, it will force my opponents to always respect the possibility of a HI wolf slipping in amongst their cheerleader sheep if they neglect to cover their whole Deployment Zone with repeaters, making them give up cover or good Flash Pulse spots and eating a few more points that could have upgraded a filler cheerleader to a dangerous killer or scoring specialist, even when the Liu Xing has been swapped for a Zhencha or a few Remotes.
     
  17. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    Ignoring flagrantly biased negativity is better for ones soul.

    Hacking will be a major challenge to the liu xing. I just had a game yesterday where my hackers did exactly jack shit to a heavy infantry link team. So its certainly not the magic fix to having a heavy roll your lines and opponents relying on it may find models they didn't want dead, dead.

    Yeah, HI AHD is an absolute trap and I hope they buff/tweak AHD sooner rather than later. AP mines would be a great but somewhat random addition. It could really emphasise a demolitions expert type of vibe along with D-charges though!

    Thats a really good point. BSG sort of limits him to getting in close, which means repeaters are even more of a threat. I guess I just tend to be very unlucky with Mrifles and so seriously underrate them, and 39 points for a multi dude seems pretty steep.

    But will need to test him out some more.
     
  18. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    I think you'll find if you actually go back and take a look over this entire battle report saga I haven't sworn at anyone and the people offended by "personal insults" are the people being told that they're playing badly, when they're playing badly, and presenting this as evidence. What was the harshest term I used? Donkey? Are we getting mad about being referred to as a donkey for making a donkey move? I could replace this term with "bad player" "inexperienced player" "new player" how much sugar coating do you deem appropriate here? What brand of sugar would you prefer here? If you're offended by donkey you're probably going to be offended by anything at this point.

    Or would you prefer that we just ignore that part and pretend that the battle report gave us great insight into the Liu Xing and proves how great it is and that the game's odd progression were as it were put just a bit of "luck" and not due to player error.


    I'm not saying you shouldn't exploit mistakes, of course you should. I'm saying that judging a model based upon opponents making unforced errors is an error in itself.


    That's why we, ISS, don't use the Boarding Shotgun one. Because it's hackable and it's too hard to use it effectively because we suck at infowar. That profile gets used by Aleph, who are good at infowar. They have actually have the hackers to make sure it can get in to do what it wants.

    We, ISS, tend to use one of the two SWC versions to gun stuff down from a safe distance. You'll notice that they're far leaner, meaner, much better optimised machines. Both the Garuda HMG and Spitfire cost far less points and SWC than the Liu Xing Spitfire, the Spitfire to Spitfire comparison alone you save 0.5 SWC and 11pts, that's not a small difference.

    On top of this the Garuda gets Mimetism and can get Marksmanship. It's very cost effective well optimised package. You'll remember the other main complaint about the Liu Xing is that he costs too much and is all over the show with dump stats and gear like the CCW.


    I'm pretty sure he can only do 9/20, but I'll give you that depending on how the rest of the army turns out, for IA the SO profile may wind up being a profile they need to lean on for High Classified.


    That it will do, but I don't rate that as being good enough. You're settling for an opponent adjusting their deployment based on a badly designed overrated model, I'm saying they should do that and the Liu Xing should also not be underwhelming at the same time. I'm sure we've had the same discussion about the Oniwabans having this effect. The desired goal is for them to do that, and like the Oniwabans, actually be a worthwhile investment so you're not handicapping yourself on the odd occassion just to keep running the Liu Xing to remind people you own it, and you might use it. It should be a good model at the same time, which right now, it's not.
     
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  19. SpectralOwl

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    Honestly, all it takes is to call it a bad play, not a bad player. We all have off days. The swearing just seems to catch the admin's attention faster than anything else, I wouldn't be surprised if anything with a swear got flagged to moderators or something.

    Your points about the Garuda are excellent, and the parallels to the Liu Xing are very applicable, but I have to ask why you consider the Liu Xing overpriced. As far as I recall, I haven't actually seen anyone except you make that complaint about them. I would have thought that AD:4 with Explode LX on the Zuyong platform would be considered an unbelievable bargain for only 6 more points than the equivalent Zuyong, especially given that the only bloat I can find on it is CC 15 and a CCW that, unlike stuff like Zuyongs, it may actually use once in a while and costs maybe two points tops. It was instrumental during my test game for kicking off a Devabot so I could shoot an Asura in the back.

    Although, that CCW annoys me a lot. From a mechanical side I would have favoured a Knife because of Shock Ammo, not making Fists wholly redundant and helping me put down ALEPH nonsense. Or Zhencha. From a fluff POV it bothers me because a scabbard seems like something you wouldn't want flapping about while falling from space, and it doesn't have the utility a trooper who could suffer Deviation easily would want; I bet in-setting the number of Liu Xing Jump Infantry who get stuck in trees during offensives is an embarrasing secret to the State Empire. Especially given that the trees eat people on Paradiso.
     
  20. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    You're also paying for dual breaker pistols, which are kind of almost never used. They're pretty pointless for the most part and overall you'd probably be better off trimming the points if you were designing something to be purely economical and it also means realistically the points difference is actually probably higher than 6pts for that explode and combat jump. @Mahtamori I am correct in assuming most profiles pay points for upgraded sidearms, right?

    However that's not really the main thing we should be looking at. I think the real disconnect here is you consider the base Zuyong is a great profile. Putting aside the argument about paying for BTS and ARM at lower values isn't worth the points vs paying the same points for MODs that increase your chance to win the F2F in the first place, because that's another huge discussion in its own right. There's an easier way to look at it.

    Which profiles for a Zuyong are the ones that people currently favour for Vanilla? It's the HMG, HMG+Automedkit, HMG LT.

    They all have something in common, it's an SWC discount. We pay MI SWC for HMGs on an HI, that's why people are interested in these profiles. It's a budget level way to get a high powered gun into your list, the draw to these Zuyongs is increased cost efficiency, the more expensive Liu Xing loses this. It suffers the same fate of the slightly more expensive Wu Ming HMG and Shang Ji spitfire, nobody cares about them. The Shang Ji HRL meets the same fate whenever someone feels the desire for a HRL HI, they pick up the more cost efficient Wu Ming version.

    Flying Zuyong on the other hand has no such concessions. He also doesn't have the other thing which is what people are interested in going forward into IA, it's link teams. When you can get a core/haris link team's worth of bonuses onto a model the cost and base efficiency discrepancies are much, much, easier to overlook.

    At the end of the day it's not truly just a flying Zuyong, there's more differences and you lose some things to gain the combat jump.
     
    #480 Triumph, Nov 22, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2018