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Happy Thread : Liu xing!

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by ObviousGray, Aug 7, 2018.

  1. Kallas

    Kallas Vincible

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    Here's why Tigers keep coming up so much:
    • We were told they definitely were going to be in IA: and now they aren't
    • We don't have any other AD troops to compare with, as Tigers are our only one
    • We were told they definitely were going to be in IA
    • Tigers are one of the better AD troops in the game, so comparisons (particularly because they are in-faction comparisons) are an obvious way to gauge the Liu Xing's capabilities.
    • We were told they definitely were going to be in IA
    • Tigers in support of the rest of the Invincibles, as we were expecting them to be, would have given us some good options that wouldn't be Hackable; that trait is a big factor, and the omnipresence of hacking vulnerability is something that needs to be considered with regards to utility and uses of a unit
    • We were told they definitely were going to be in IA
    and finally:
    • We were told they definitely were going to be in IA

    Edit:
    To really explain why that last point is important: we just had a long period after being pretty harshly fucked without any preamble, and then we had the rug pulled from under us again. Uprising had no warming up period: we were told it was going to happen a couple of weeks beforehand - Tigers in IA was stated months ago: now with only a couple of week to go (hmm, again?) we're told that they're not in there.

    It's history repeating itself (albeit on a much smaller scale), which bodes ill - that doesn't mean that IA are going to be bad because of the lack of Tigers, but it does mean that CB don't seem to have really learned anything from the Uprising debacle.
     
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  2. ObviousGray

    ObviousGray Frenzied Mushroom
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    I thank for your effort and tone, firstly.

    Yes, and I am annoyed that CB flipped their promise like nothing. I heard there will be TS presence in IA, which was totally welcome.

    I wanted to say this; I am not advocating CB for that reason. Critical mistakes deserve critical, sometimes harsh, critics. Not having TS on IA need some hot point out.

    Comparing our best and only AD with something that has similar design, fine by it, because that was what we got until now.

    But I see some people hyperboling too much. Give some respect; Liu Xing got its ups and downs, and I was sick of picking up its downsides mainly, neglecting its appeal points.

    And the reason? Tiger. Most of the time, Tiger the great. But that doesn't make Liu Xing up to no good.
     
  3. Kallas

    Kallas Vincible

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    Liu Xing does have value:
    • Effectively 2W is solid, for all of the reasons that HI are generally liked.
    • Bioimmunity is definitely good, as it's more than just Shock Immunity. I'd be interested to know the cost difference between Shock and Bio, but presumably it's fairly small - so having the extra resilience vs Viral is a nice little bonus.
    • Explode LX is underwhelming, but it does have its uses.
    I think the main problem is it's kind of lacklustre. Its loadouts are quite plain (and because of that they invite the comparison with the similar Tiger loadouts) and don't really bring anything new, that's almost exclusively on the back of the Liu Xing being a 2W AD trooper. Its stats aren't anything to write home about, as it's basically an AD4 Zuyong, or an uparmoured/BTS'd Tiger.

    What I would really want to see is, as has been suggested might* be the case, more loadouts with some different utility. If we do get more loadouts when Army gets updated, then hopefully that will breath some variety in to the Liu Xing.



    *I say might because there's no knowing if the previous way with Coldfront/the other one will hold true for this, with regards to not spoiling every loadout.
     
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  4. SpectralOwl

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    The posted profiles are from Vanilla; you can tell because the AVA is much lower than the Sectorial's AVA chart suggests. This means that any Sectorial-specific profiles will not be shown. However, we have no indication of whether or not any such profiles actually exist, unfortunately.
     
  5. ObviousGray

    ObviousGray Frenzied Mushroom
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    Tougher than the maligned Fraacta, maybe. If Liu Xing rolled out as Top-notch HI, I mean 50pts real fatguy, he would be competing with our golden trinity boys.

    Not to mention it would strengthen our mono-listing, frankly said. I rather prefer current profile of flying Zuyong, not risking overinvesting.

    Let's hope for it, at least.
     
  6. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I don't actually find the Tigers to be all that amazing. Too high order cost to actually bring one on the table.

    That said, I still haven't tried them in ITS10. I need to do that, but games haven't happened the past month and abstinence is setting in.
    I'm still not entirely sure I follow your logic, but if the enemy has set up a couple of repeaters or three of any description in their ZOC making it dangerous to drop the Louie on a target there, then you could always wait for turn 2 when you and your opponent has had a chance to remove those pieces instead of trying to Alpha with a drop trooper.

    Or harass that midfield, 'cause even the BSG is quite capable up to 16" and thanks to higher damage and template comparable to a Combi up to 24".
     
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  7. epsilon

    epsilon Member

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    I totally agree with you.
    Thought tiger is one of the best ad in the game ( in my opinion), it lacks the second wound. Shit can happen (i mean crit on aro) and quite expensive model will do nothing.
    That's why Liu xing is solid.
    Yeah he's a light hi. But lets be honest. If your ad falls unconscious chances to heal him are very low any way (so it does not matter that he dies after second wound) .
    Many people here say that being a hi makes him vulnerable for hacking. But everything depends on your local meta. Not every community plays with a wide net of repeaters and assault hackers. Some fractions don't have neither of them at all (tohaa, ariadna). So i think that this fear is to dramatisized.
    So i see him as a striker with ability to push buttons (i like muti rifle + specialist option) which starts game at the 3rd quarter of table (exp jump will be very occasional, it was obvious since heard about this, cos it shouldn't be a game breaking ability)

    Everything written above was just my personal opinion and excuse me for my English.

     
    #407 epsilon, Nov 16, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2018
  8. Fire@Will

    Fire@Will Well-Known Member

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    Maybe CB think Tiger Soldiers will make IA overpowered, but made that decision late in the design process.

    For a sectorial that is meant to find elite hacking a challenge, having a good, non-hackable, alpha strike seems powerful...
     
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  9. Mc_Clane

    Mc_Clane Zhànzhēng bùzhǎng
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    This weeping has nothing to do with the lack of announcement. For example, It was stated months a go (rumble) that Daofei was not gonna be on invincible, And Yet, we are constantly reminded that "zencha is a mini dao", and "it's not a dao", "dao was suposed to be on invincible", "So, so, disappointing i'm gonna cry", "CB I blame you", "why?"

    It's the same thing over and over. "Someone wanting CB to back off decisiones because he says so", (Even without knowing the final version, or the performance of the troop inside a game) or they're just asking time and time again, why CB takes that decisions. But when posible answers are presented to them, they just ignore them and discard them like crap. I've gotten to the conclusion that all reasoning behind this people is just makeup to conceal a need to impose their will, nothing more, nothing less.

    If tigers are not inside IA it's probably due to some role overlapping, because the results after testing concluded so, or because the mastermind behind the story has polished the details. They can't be constantly answering every question or explaining every decision. And, I don't think it's fair to treat them like that, nor for the worldwide community to constantly endure this behavior

    Tigers doesn't have Multi loadouts, Tigers are worse hackers, tigers can't drop over overwatched spots, Tigers are extremely vulnerable to direct templates, tigers does't have D-Charges...

    I really don't know why people keeps complaining about the liu-xing. It brings more diversity than many other factions AD versions. Hellcat-tomcat, akali-crusader,...

    When you talk about lackluster you're probably asking for some unorthodox secondary weapons like EM grenades, flametrowers, mines, jammer or something but that's not the liuxing to blame. All invincible up to now is like that, straight forward troops in a straight forward sectorial. We're used to that utility/unortodox loadouts thanks to ISS (wu-mings, pheasants, cranes,...) and even JSA (domaru, karakuri, aragotos...) an even good vanilla troops like the guilang. But what's important is the solidity and sharpened profiles towards particular tasks we're taking, And if the'll be working inside a sectorial, because in Generic, any half assed profile can work, even if it's not mainly used because the rest of the team can cover that gap.

    We're still missing the hulongs, we may hope some of that problems/wishes can be adressed on them. But we must keep realistic. This is what they've given us, what can we make with it?
     
    #409 Mc_Clane, Nov 16, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2018
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  10. Maksimas

    Maksimas Maxi

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    Bully Tohaa and Ariadna with Liu Xings.
    That is one thing that comes to mind.
     
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  11. Joametz

    Joametz Chinese Empire in Space enthusiast

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    So, I have a question regarding Explode LX and SSL2.

    One of the uses I saw for the Liu Xing was as a threat for link teams, meaning he could potentially land next to the last guy on a link team lined up against a wall. That way, he would only get one shoot-ARO, because the enemy trooper would be blocking LoF against him for his other team members and, afterwards, the Shooting Star would be able to shoot his BSG landing a template on possibly 4 dudes.

    #ChristmasLand

    However, SSL2 says that if a trooper is the target of an attack, it can ARO in response to that attack even if it has no LoF against the attacker.

    So, with that said my question is this: would the other members of the link get an Attack ARO against the Liu Xing if the drop template touches them even though a friendly trooper is blocking LoF for them?
     
  12. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    Considering we don't have the actual rule yet I can confidently say the answer is:

    Maybe
     
  13. Joametz

    Joametz Chinese Empire in Space enthusiast

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    The rule was spoiled, it's a direct template with dmg 12. However, it is true that within the rules explanation could be a side note regarding this.

    I would like to encourage a discussion regardless, taking into account what we know so far.
     
  14. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    We got a description in a podcast, not the whole rule unfortunately. It hinges mostly on if ExplodeX has the Attack label, if it does then 6th sense will allow you to Dodge at no penalty, it might also have a clause allowing any affected troopers to Dodge ARO, possibly with a penalty like mines have.
     
  15. Shango

    Shango Well-Known Member

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    I really hope that explode LX won't be an attack but will remain an Automatic and Obligatory Skill. I imagined more an explosion due to the landing of a few hundreds kilo soldier launched at high velocity (precisely to avoid enemy reactions) than an explosive weapon triggered by his carrier: a collateral effect of landing in some way (Which will explain the little damage)
    If it is confirmed I would be disappointed also: from what I imagine the Skill, if the "Meteor " makes damage by landing it will do all the time.
    So many questions... that will soon have their answers, and their respective FAQs, and their own contradictions in a few months... But in the meantime let us rejoice!
     
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  16. Shiwen

    Shiwen Commissar, Yu Jing General Political Department

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    It seems a hope never to be fulfilled, but I've still got fingers crossed somehow the Explode rules allow it to hit camo markers without needing a non-marker target, just because that would be an amazing tool in the toolbox... IA isnt clearing camo with Sensor, its using the explosive impacts of drop troops.

    On the Liu Xing more generally, even if I wish there was more to the unit, in a vanilla context I can see it playing a psychological role... what is the hole in the courtesy list? A Hac Tao, some Ninjas, some Tigers, a Liu Xing, some combination thereof. Id doesnt replace the Oniwaban for pure mindgame effect on the opponent's deployment, but the way you need to place to deal with a Tiger and with a Liu Xing are very different. If nothing else, it adds one more possibility, one more factor to make enemy choices harder and open up opportunities if their guess as to what you're bringing is incorrect.
     
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  17. Maksimas

    Maksimas Maxi

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    What if it's a Hac Tao? What if it's a Ninja? Wait, what if it's just a bunch of Zhenchas and Daofeis the enemy has yet to deploy? Could be a Tiger though. But what if that Rui Shi or Baggage bot is actually a Lu Duan in disguise? What if I need to deal with a Liu Xing?
    That's a lot of what-ifs.

    And yes.
    I have seen people disguise their Lu Duans as Rui Shis. The local JSA player likes to do that.
     
  18. banthafodder

    banthafodder Well-Known Member

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    I am not personally invested in either the Daofei or Tiger being in IA. That's a hill I don't feel like dying on. But what really concerns me is that the Tiger thing is another symptom of how bad CB is at communicating and setting expectations.

    As Kallas pointed out before a lot of shit happened to us without warning or releasing a clear plan of what was going forward.

    Do you remember when the Infinity community as a whole was trying to figure out who was getting a sectoral release this year? How, based on a presentation timeline, we were convinced post Tunguska, only three more Sectorals would be released? When, complete with a comic, we learned Varuna, Pan O's 4th sectoral, took that last spot and IA were presumably Q 1 2019 at the earliest?

    All this and the Uprising events seemed to indicate that CB didn't understand how much ill will pulling a Ko Dali for an entire Sectoral would generate and had originally planned on leaving it as is. The fact IA is arriving early, implies they realized this relatively late and tried to course correct. This lack of forethought speaks to the fear that they don't have a good plan or clear vision for the faction as a whole.

    Fear that could be assuaged by simply providing honest insight. Something like "We didn't feel it was a good fit," or "We had to delay this because things weren't working out the way we wanted." Certainly not a ghoulish presentation with bizarre numbers and justifications.

    I don't believe creators have to answer every question, but if you are going telling 1/3 of my collection to go take a hike, I would like at least a sign you have your head screwed on straight.
     
  19. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    Tigers in its 10 have done some pretty awesome stuff for me.

    I agree about waiting until turn 2 as well. There are options to application but determining if an alpha option is available feeds into that psychological warfare aspect.

    What I'm trying to point out is, unless your opponent us willing to reveal their hidden assualt hackers (normally in the midfield). Most armies will only have a regular hacker to take advantage of said DZ repeater network. And those might be your intended target anyway.

    I'd argue getting them to reveal the AHD could be an advantage if you can capitalise as well.
     
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  20. Fire@Will

    Fire@Will Well-Known Member

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    What would appease all of us, though? More promises? I suspect CB's thinking is evolving on this sectorial over the last year, but the evidence is, as you say, thin on the ground. Maybe there are lessons learned in the re-release of MO that will become evident in IA over time, but I think there's a limit to how far we can peek behind the curtain.
     
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