1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Hemos actualizado nuestra Política de Privacidad acorde con la nueva RGPD. +Info // We've updated our Privacy Policy to comply with the GDPR. +Info
    Dismiss Notice

Hakims: what Svalarheima Valkyries should have been

Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by Rey, May 18, 2018.

  1. Fyeya

    Fyeya Yakitori over a light flamethrower

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2018
    Messages:
    405
    Likes Received:
    699
    ...

    I don't know how to deal with the salty thread being outside of YJ.

    Is that how things normally are?
     
    loricus and bladerunner_35 like this.
  2. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2017
    Messages:
    3,260
    Likes Received:
    6,862
    Yup. YJ and PanO were always the worst offenders ;)
     
    loricus and bladerunner_35 like this.
  3. Fyeya

    Fyeya Yakitori over a light flamethrower

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2018
    Messages:
    405
    Likes Received:
    699
    Man, we can't even be #1 in salt exports.

    Time to start a thread about how incompetent YJ is that we can't even whine hardest.
     
    Barrogh, Keyrott, injenegr and 9 others like this.
  4. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    2,233
    Likes Received:
    2,298
    Well, both camps are whining without any good reason, so there’s that...
     
  5. senso

    senso Member

    Joined:
    May 11, 2018
    Messages:
    13
    Likes Received:
    6
    The Hakim looks cool, but I find him kind of redundant - I'm not sure what he could achieve that Haqq couldn't do before. Plus if you really want a decent doctor in the mid-field early, you already had Halqa (cheaper) or the Tuareg (TO). Plus AD: I can go wrong if your opponent sets up good AROs.

    Again, a decent doctor, but nothing spectacular in an army with plenty of spectacular doctors.
     
    Golem2God likes this.
  6. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2017
    Messages:
    3,220
    Likes Received:
    6,197
    Tohaa do not have only Symbiot armour troops

    Now why Hakim for PanO, I mean they look nice but what purpose they would fill, I don't mind extra doctors but, our forward elements are limited, they would come with AD4 because PanO and more expensive and I doubt they would not come with proper main armament given PanO is set to deliver proper combat troops, if nothing else Magisters are the only oddballs in the entire PanO not been properly armed.
     
    Deltervees and A Mão Esquerda like this.
  7. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2017
    Messages:
    3,572
    Likes Received:
    5,314
    Not come with proper main weaponry....loke combi rifles right...

    Or do you mean the hmgs spitfires and msrs....
    pay that swc cost and like it ;) right!

    Seriously stop feeding us that please it doesnt help it just reinforces the problem. That cb has no clue what to do with pano beyond "no you cant gavs nice things"
     
    eciu likes this.
  8. Solodice

    Solodice Freshly Squeezed Troll

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2017
    Messages:
    450
    Likes Received:
    857
    Yeah, this probably explains best why I don't play PanO. One word that I like to describe vanilla PanO is thus: Boring.

    Me: What does PanO do?

    PanO: We shoot stuff well.

    Me: What else?

    PanO: We shoot stuff well.

    Me: And?

    PanO: We shoot stuff well.

    [​IMG]

    Some interesting units but I can mainly count the most creative ones on one to two hands. Sectorials get better because it cuts out the redundant units (I don't know how vanilla PanO is going to survive 2 more sectorials) and play to their themes very well.

    DISCLAIMER: This is all my opinion folks.
     
  9. TriggerPuller9000

    TriggerPuller9000 Poverty Orde Wingate

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2017
    Messages:
    159
    Likes Received:
    340
    Absolutely, and when Dr. Fireaxe mistakes his Sawzall for a tourniquet, Ariadna troops don't get Cubes for a command token reroll.
     
    xagroth, Stiopa and oldGregg like this.
  10. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2017
    Messages:
    3,220
    Likes Received:
    6,197
    Correct, combi rifles.

    Well taking into account what really is the design principles behind PanO into consideration is important when asking for modifications of PanO units, PanO is designed as a proper military force, they virtually have no unarmoured soldiers except cheap remotes and one troop exception, the Regulars, they have no troops without a main rifle with the exception of again remotes and one troop exception the Magisters, if they have a skill or equipment they will go for the tier that is the top technologically wise except if that would involve veterancy, for example they have AD Combat Jump, but not AD Superior Combat Jump.

    Most of the oddball units are recent developments timeline wise, Crocmen, Regulars, Black Friars, even Locust and show how monolithic is PanO in their military organisation and how massive the developments need to be to drastically shift their perception.

    Yes, changes can and should be discussed, but design principles must be taken into account.
     
  11. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2017
    Messages:
    3,260
    Likes Received:
    6,862
    The problem is that for a long time CB confused monolithic with homogenous. We saw first signs of change with Black Friars, Locusts and Bolts (their concept could use some better execution, but it's still a step in a good direction).

    Bottom line is that I agree, Hakims are a unit that doesn't really fit PanO's "regular army" theme, and are relying more on skill and biotech (Haqq strong sides), than on standard technology.

    If I were to design a similar unit for PanO I'd probably model it on Crusaders, taking away their heavy weapons and giving them Doctor and Engineer loadouts. After all, Hospitallers are already the go-to CSAR units. Additional benefit is that this would make them more their own unit, instead of being Akalis copycats.
     
    #51 Stiopa, May 20, 2018
    Last edited: May 20, 2018
  12. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2017
    Messages:
    2,670
    Likes Received:
    4,466
    I'd make it as a SAA type troop myself, potentially a FO/Dep Rep and Doctor profile rather than just all Doctors, called them ASPs, PanOceanian Aerial Support Personnel, background wise a section of PanO Naval Special Forces deployed to assist ground troops with medical support, target observation and datasphere establishment in a variety of battlefield environments and terrains. Cool snake icon in the Army Builder too, maybe a motto in Portugeuse or Hindi about knowledge being power.
     
    Rey likes this.
  13. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    3,683
    Likes Received:
    4,317
    Where is my regular CoC dude?
     
    Barrogh, xagroth, injenegr and 2 others like this.
  14. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    3,683
    Likes Received:
    4,317
    Oh yea. Because every scrub in PanO has eclipse grenades, AP HMG, EMitters, EMaulers or most Hi-Tech weapon - a frikking Jammer xD
     
    xagroth and daboarder like this.
  15. kepkeilen

    kepkeilen Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2018
    Messages:
    49
    Likes Received:
    46
    Both the boon and bane of PanO's design is that PanO at its core design is meant to be a comparatively more straight forward and newbie friendly army. So they don't get/get limited amount of of toys with complex rules.

    The sectorials bend this philosophy quite a bit and recent releases have started to become more diverse as well. But at its core it remains a straight forward, easy to pick up, shooty focused army.

    They also have plenty of shiny big guns, TAGs, Knights etc. to bring some spice into this somewhat bland (for experienced people) scenario. Needless to say models like also help attract newbies, like how MO are a strong magnet for 40K players. So overall PanO needs to stay a bit newbie friendly among the factions.
     
    Golem2God likes this.
  16. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2017
    Messages:
    3,260
    Likes Received:
    6,862
    I'm very much not convinced by "newbie-friendly" argument. What if the newbie in question likes a different army? Should he learn the game with PanO, before switching over?

    Every faction should be diverse and fun to play.
     
    Barrogh, xagroth, Keyrott and 3 others like this.
  17. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    3,683
    Likes Received:
    4,317
    Because someone thought giving all Knights but 1 Spitfires is a good idea...
     
    daboarder likes this.
  18. Magonus

    Magonus Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2017
    Messages:
    262
    Likes Received:
    808
    New players don't even reach for PanO specifically, anyway. There are always newbies jumping straight into JSA and Onyx and ALEPH.
    Granted, Knights were designed long ago. If they were designed nowadays, they'd look a lot more like Steel Phalanx or Tohaa in terms of versatility and cost-effectiveness. Back then, CB though 1 or 2 points of stat difference and levelled skill was worth your attention and 5 points.

    Part of the problem is that CB learns what is effective from Army and ITS data, and not necessarily its own playtesting. They would have thought that CC+ and AutoMediKit and Guard and X-Visor are cool and worth the points, but the players know otherwise, and always reach for Camo, Smoke, FOs, Killer Hackers, Frenzy links, cheap orders, etc.

    And part of the problem is always ITS and its clamoring need for specialists, which makes most (old) Infinity profiles a non-option. Not until entering Army profiles into the Skunkworks builder did I realize just how many Infinity profiles I've never seen on the table. See like, half.

    And of course part of the problem is the massive stretches of time that armies/sectorials go without an update. I hate to tell grumpy players to "buy another army," but I'd rather they stick in the game somehow, than drop it because their army is currently in CB's Schrödinger sack.
     
  19. kepkeilen

    kepkeilen Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2018
    Messages:
    49
    Likes Received:
    46
    Newbie friendly armies aren't meant to attract people that have already decided they like one of the factions and want to start playing.They are meant to convince those still over the fence and can't decide which faction to pick. This is specially aimed for those who feel overwhelmed by the rules, and are hesitant to start playing. They are present in almost every single game, be it tabletop, CCG, video games (like RTS, MOBA, RPG, fighting, recently even FPS) etc.

    These factions usually tend to rely comparatively less on tricks. They often focus on brute force and straight forward playstyle that offers newbies a easy entry point if they are looking for one. Fun is subjective. Some people do enjoy steamrolling the opponent rather than playing tricks.

    Infinity is already a complex game that strongly mandates a faction to remain less complex and more welcoming compared to the others so newbies find an easy entry point if they are looking for one.

    Every faction are already diverse and fun to play, they are just not equally diverse. Its probably safe to say no game has ever been designed that has all factions equally diverse.
     
    emperorsaistone and Golem2God like this.
  20. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2017
    Messages:
    3,260
    Likes Received:
    6,862
    I disagree. This approach means that once you've learned the game a bit you'll find out that your faction has little tactical depth, which is exactly what we're complaining about. There's simply too few tools available, and most of them is focused on supporting one set of tactics. This can be dealt with without making the faction too complicated, simply by diversifying set of available tactics. Instead we have multiple units that fill the same role and are very similar stat- and skill-wise.

    Comparing tabletop game with video ones misses important point; it's far easier to start a new faction there, than it is start a new one in tabletop. And starting with a faction that ultimately isn't as much fun as you thought it would be doesn't cost as much, if at all, while buying into tabletop army and then having to switch can be very unpleasant.

    And accesibility can be provided simply by constructing starter boxes correctly, without rules-heavy units.