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Hacking in Tunguska

Discussion in 'Nomads' started by stramarvelous, Feb 10, 2020.

  1. stramarvelous

    stramarvelous Member

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    Hi guys, I've seen in many of your lists that you are playing a lot Mary or interventors, in Tunguska off course but I'm asking how do you use these wonderful pieces.
    I have chose Nomad in first place for the hackers power, but in my meta I've found a lot of problems to make ours hacker real diamond.
    A very few pieces hackable, too much Khd..
    I've found difficulties to make 30 point of Mary or 25 of Interventor worth the cost, instead of using another piece.
    Give me some advice!

    This tread can be good also in the others sectorial..
     
  2. fatherboxx

    fatherboxx Well-Known Member

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    If you take high cost hackers (especially Interventor LT) you should account for opponents KHDs reaching them and deploy accordingly.

    Like if you are playing against OSS you KNOW that one of the infiltrated markers is Naga KHD, if you are playing against Onyx or CA then one of the hidden deployed units may be a Malignos etc. So if you play against an army with these effective units, you should deploy your repeaters and hackers on the other side from them (or their likely locations), screened with ARO. Against Onyx with Kerrnau unfortunately there is zero counterplay, his pitcher is going to get you.

    With Mary careful play against KHDs usually means NOT placing her in full forward deployment if you go 2nd.

    The value in Interventor these days is White Noise bc of Taagma and Kamau.
    Mary is not a very effective model but funnily she may be best in hackerless environment, just using ODD and Climbing plus to kill units on rooftops. Also suicidal zapper can wreck a fireteam permanently.

    Spektr AHD is a pretty ok choice against OSS (once you eliminate Naga) to lock Dakini team from rushing ahead or in Limited Insertion where there are enough targets to Oblivion.
     
  3. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

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    A couple general Nomad principles for hacking also apply to TJC:

    1. Superior digital firepower: Your ability to leverage your hackers requires good repeater coverage, which also makes them vulnerable to KHD. But if you have three hackers, the KHD may hit one of yours but is just trading out. One of your ARO counter-hacks is likely to be unopposed.

    Even two hackers can do a decent job on defense. Suckerpunch from an Interventor plus Redrum or Carbonite from Mary is a pretty good reaction to whatever the KHD is throwing at you.

    So if you're going to invest in hacking, go all the way. Two or three hackers minimum IMO. Interventor -and- Mary, and then either Spektr KHD, another Interventor, or an EVO (they still have Brain Blast to ARO with). HD+, AHD, and KHD all in one list are a favorite spread for me, and the mutual defense is pretty good.

    When I play Corregidor, it's usually Jazz (now, it used to be Valerya Gromoz) and a KHD bandit, which do a good job of defending each other. With the Morans' forward Repeater bubble, even just Jazz on her own is tempting KHD-bait. I'll sometimes have an AHD Hellcat or the like in there too if I'm playing against a techy opponent.

    2. Use the tools that don't require FtF hacking. Spotlight, White Noise, and Supportware are your friends against low-tech opponents. You paid for them, use them.

    Spotlight on its own is also useful for sticky problems: it may take an order or three to achieve, but if it means your Kriza can then gun down a nasty ARO piece like a Spetznas in Suppressive Fire or a linked sniper with Mimetism, it's worth it to tilt the odds in your favor.

    You will also often have a Sensor unit with your Hollowmen. An EVO hacker lets you Sat-Lock at flat WIP13 against camo markers, which can then help remove threats to your Hollowmen link or dig out hard-to-catch things like camo Lts. And you're also set up for guided missiles if you took a Vertigo. TJC can be really nasty with Guided Missiles.

    White Noise is the solution to stupid Kamau or Haidao sniper problems, but also great for preventing smoke-trick hijinks.
     
  4. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

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    Also, I really don't like taking an Interventor Lt (or even worse a Custodier Lt.), especially when you're low on other Lt. possbilities in your list so things are obvious. Too many alpha-strikes from KHDs, ugh.
     
  5. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    Don't forget the Heckler KHD, and as an added bonus they can cybermask up and go hunting with their assault pistol when they run out of stuff to murder hack.
     
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  6. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    I find Interventors are *just* viable thanks to their BTS. But their survival relies on inviting your opponent to fight you through your own Repeaters. Basically, the odds of you dying in the initial exchange are relatively low (particularly if your opponent goes for a Surprise Shot so you can get Breakwater off). This allows you to leverage other Hackers for defence on Normal rolls.

    Gets boned by any opponent who can easily put a Repeater down in a location that doesn't also cover your KHD. And also fuck Maestro. That program is straight up broken: why it's got Breaker on top of everything else IDK.

    Overall they're a risk, but usually it pays off.

    Custodiers though are hot garbage as Lts. Way too expensive and way too vulnerable.

    -----

    I don't think you need to go heavy into Hacking BTW. A Heckler KHD + Interventor Lt is 14pts/0.5SWC and is sufficient 90% of the time. Add a Heckler Jammer and maybe a couple of REMs and you have solid Repeater coverage as well.
     
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  7. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    Another reason why TJC really wants to go first, so that the interventor can get cybermask off and be less vulnerable to enemy hackers. But due to the native superiority in most lists they will need to wade through your hackers to get at them, they are normally more likely to get put down by conventional threats.
     
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  8. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

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    My 2 Hecklers in vanilla are usually devoted to demonstrating to opponents exactly why Jammers are broken, as well as extending the repeater net. But good point for TJC, where one can have a third. Pretty great price-point for what they can do.

    @inane.imp fully agreed on Maestro.

    And I getcha about the BTS9, but having 30-40% odds of my Lt. dying for every order the opponent wants to pump into it still feels too dicey to me. I try to avoid it, but still field one occasionally when there's not much other choice.
     
  9. PillageIdiot

    PillageIdiot Member

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    It's my humble opinion that hacking dominance is based more on repeater coverage than it's based on hackers. As long as you have the repeater coverage, a humble Securitate Hacker should be enough to dominate the hacking game against *most* factions.

    That said, I prefer spending the extra points to get a (non-linkable) Interventor over the Securitate for four reasons: 1) Oblivion. This program gives the interventor legitimate teeth in ARO against any hackable target...the interventor basically becomes a more powerful jammer. 2) Sucker Punch. This is better than Red Rum in ARO and almost as good in the Active turn. Against non-killer-hackers through a repeater it's an almost guaranteed kill. 3) White Noise. This is a fall back when everything goes wrong and you have to get past MSV. 4) Breakwater. This is a fall back when a hidden deployment killer hacker reveals to ARO.

    Ideally you want both a Securitate hacker in a link and an Interventor. This allows you to hack in ARO against targets with stealth. When, for example, a Hospitaller link tries to stealth past your repeater, your Securitate can use sixth sense to ignore the stealth and hit one with "Gotcha". If the target decides to reset, that breaks the stealth and now the Interventor gains and ARO and can hack with "Oblivion". If you also happen to have Heckler within 8" it too can now gain an ARO and use a jammer. That said, there aren't all that many factions that rely on stealthy hackable link teams, so I often save a few points and leave the Securitate hacker at home.

    Two excellent ways to establish repeater coverage are the Heckler with fast panda and the Meteor Zond. The Meteor Zond does not AD very reliably, but if you're patient with it you can sometimes walk it in and surprise someone who isn't expecting it. The Heckler is more reliable, able to place a repeater at bare minimum 20" anywhere within its starting position if you're willing to sacrifice it (8" first move, if it's discovered 4" first skill and 8" movement for the fast panda). That basically lets you place a fast panda anywhere you want to the edge of your opponent's deployment zone since the Heckler can start 16" up from your table edge.

    The Heckler's fast panda also makes it a better ARO piece than if it had the jammer alone. When my Heckler reveals to jammer something, I know there's a good chance it will eventually die, usually in just another order (especially if the jammer fails). An enemy will usually charge and force a face to face roll, against which the Heckler isn't particularly good at defending. When it's unlikely the Heckler will survive anyway, I prefer to drop a fast panda in ARO. That's great against a hackable target, since now it must try and destroy the fast panda and I get a free Oblivion against it while it does so. But even against unhackable targets, most opponents don't want to just leave a dangerous repeater around, so they'll spend that extra order to kill the fast panda.

    The last thing I like to do with my hacking lists is add a Vertigo Zond. It's only 18 points and has a pretty legitimate gun on it. The big downside is it costs 1.5 swc so if your list is SWC starved maybe leave it at home. For me, for what I like to take in my hacking lists, I'm really never maxed out on SWC anyway so it's an easy take. The reason I like to bring it is because if I suddenly find myself fighting against someone with no hackable targets, well the guided missile makes everyone hackable. For example, once your opponent gets hit by a guided missile, he won't ignore those fast pandas your Heckler drops in ARO and will spend the extra order to kill them.

    If you go all in on hacking you do have to be really careful about killer hackers. Whenever you want to active turn hack something, be sure and start with your interventor and declare idle to force any hidden deployment hackers to come out of hidden and ARO. Then you can breakwater them. Once they're revealed, stop spending orders on hackers and use your Hecklers to run up and jammer them, disabling their hacking devices. Or, if they're not a particularly dangerous killer hacker, just sucker punch them.

    More dangerous than the hidden deployment killer hackers, though, are the tinbot-protected linked killer hackers. Leila Sharif is really dangerous with her 14 WIP. There's a Santiago killer hacker that can wildcard into Military Orders links, and there's an Invincible Army killer hacker that can join their links (complete with the -6 tinbot B). I've gotten hurt by those when I'm on "autopilot" and just do my usual tactic of dropping a fast panda in ARO, basically giving them a nice gift to now kill my hackers. You've just got to be smarter than that and realize they have the advantage. If you really want to hack them, be sure and target the tinbot figure with your jammers to knock it out of the link so it's no longer protecting the killer hacker. Then you gain the advantage again.

    This is all just my own thoughts/experience with hacking in Tunguska, neither better nor worse than the other observations from the other players. I hope a multitude of voices, tactics and strategies helps you figure out your own preferred method of hacking.
     
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  10. Jason839

    Jason839 Well-Known Member

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    Because Tunguska is so elite, it’s important for everything you take to either a) be so good at a specific role that nothing else can beat it like the kriza for shooting, or b) bring a lot of utility to fullfill multiple roles.

    With this in mind I take the interventer because it gives me a wip15 lt option with hacking device plus. This is useful because it gives me a good chance of winning the lt roll, and I like to build lists with the goal of picking the best terrain side and deploying second to counter deploy. The HD+ is useful because it brings the white noise and sucker punch programs. Combined with the good wip and bts of the interventer, it brings some useful tools.

    mary problems is useful because she brings a mobile specialist that is good at close range shooting in the active turn, while also providing assault hacking device and killer hacking device AROs. Assault hacking device is important to have if you expect a lot of heavy infantry remotes or tags, and killer hacking device is important to defend your hackers and kill theirs. Being both on the same profile saves about 20 points although if you lose her it’s a bit of a blow.
     
  11. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    You're overstating it a touch.

    This is Surprise Shot Redrum from the most common threat (WIP13 Camo/TO KHD). If it's Surprise Shot you have the opportunity to Breakwater. Which you should absolutely do: the odds of getting Sucker Punch off vs a Surprise Shot are bad, so forcing another order is usually the right move. It's also worth noting the Breakwater isn't a Hacking Attack so isn't affected by Firewall MODs (for people who Repeater first and then Surprise Shot).

    [​IMG]

    But, again you want to make it appear to your opponent that the easiest play is through your Repeaters (although you don't want to make this trivial). This let's you Skullbuster with your KHD. Which is ~60% odds to kill an average KHD.

    30% odds aren't great. But you can usually make it a suicide play. So it's a high risk play that's more likely than not going to end with a dead KHD. Meta dependant, but a lot of opponents won't bother and instead try something more reliable: particularly if their KHD is really a specialist who can Redrum.

    Onyx and CJC can trivially get around this unless you basically deploy your KHD ontop of your Interventor. Linked Kerr-Nau is FUCKED, Jazz is only marginally better.

    Nomads as a whole you run the risk of running into a stronger Hacking game so it's probably not worth it. But honestly, I probably still do if the list I'm running is significantly improved by it. But I've lost games on that call and bad dice (opponent waded a Hollowman KHD into a Moran's Repeater and took Mary + Interventor AROs giving 0 fucks).

    YJ doesn't have the Repeater coverage, so usually will try for direct plays (which should be covered by KHD and/or Jammers) and PanO lacks the aggressive KHDs to pull it off without first fighting your midfield (ASA excepted, but they lack the Repeaters). I'll happily run Interventor Lts all the time vs both factions: the benefits significantly outweigh the risks.

    Aleph and O-12 are kinda the 'well, maybe' factions. I tend to see them played either KHD, KHD + HD+ (Naga are bad, but a Zero is still on 53% odds to Trinity them on a Normal roll).
    O-12 you'll probably see multiple KHDs, but they're quite often defensive and outside of Sirius they don't have much deep Repeater coverage. I'd probably risk it as I think being able to exploit my Repeaters vs 0-12 is going to be more worthwhile.

    Ariadna, Tohaa are no brainers.

    CA and Haqq I'm more worried about an Impersonation assassination than a KHD.

    Mission wise though, I definitely don't take them in any mission they scores Lt kills.

    The other point is EVOs: the re-rolls on a failure and the option to start with Kaleidoscope up are gamechangers.

    Here's with Kaleidoscope (without Rerolls) :
    [​IMG]

    This is why I say Interventors Lts only just make sense. It's right on the margin: quite often you're dedicating resources and effort to keeping them alive. The advent of the Securitate Lt, allowing you to take 2 for 6-10pts more than Jags or 8pt REMs has been a boon: but realistically that's a loss of 2 orders.
     
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  12. PillageIdiot

    PillageIdiot Member

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    If you're taking a five man securitate link you're mitigating loss of lieutenant so much that I think it's worth gaining the extra order every turn (potentially 3 extra orders). If you're taking fewer than five Securitate (mixed in grenzers/perseus/raoul, or hollow man link instead) I agree it's right on the edge and loss of lieutenant can really hurt. The think that pains me when I take the Securitate lieutenant is that I feel as if I'm basically wasting their veteran ability, since if I go into LOL my securitate are probably all dead and that means I don't have any veteran orders to lean on.

    Surprisingly (to me at least) I don't take the interventor lieutenant all that often because that one stupid point she costs over the boarding shotgun version almost always costs me something else I really want.
     
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  13. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Oh rant: CB fucked the Sucker punch update.

    The extra DAM is FAR less useful than Maestro's +3/-3.

    If they'd drop the DAM to 14 (as per Brainblast) and add a +3 WIP they'd have done so much to address how trivially HD+'s get killed.

    Maestro shits all over Sucker punch as an ARO.

    Interventor Suckerpunch vs ZERO Surprise Skullbuster and Jazz vs Zero Surprise Redrumt

    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Maestro accounts entirely for +1 WIP and +3 BTS. And that's not accounting for Breaker.

    FakeEdit: I'm le idiot, forgot that Skullbuster is literally 'use in case of Interventor'.
     
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  14. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I'm thinking mainly Vanilla. In TJC the Sec push it more into the 'should take' column.
     
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  15. jfunkd

    jfunkd Rebel Myrmidon Graffiti Artist
    Warcor

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    I can't possibly disagree more with this statement. Mary Problems is a Rockstar.

    Play her for yourself and see, don't take my word or anyone else's for it. If you use her, I'm certain you will see her value.

    Firstly; a SMG, climbing plus, ODD and Zapper, FD1 with hyper dynamics is a solid unit for hunting especially because she can use the KHD for cybermask. She is incredible utility for her cost in TJC, has an ARO that can stop almost any Rambo in its tracks, and as a specialist she's outstanding at getting objectives and classifieds.

    Secondly; add that she has both KHD, AHD and Pitchers for 30 points and is a deal you won't find anywhere else in Infinity. She is a solid counter deployment to HI, TAGs, REMs, other hackers and anything that can be isolated and wants to make an attack run past her.

    As for this statement, yes she can be attacked by KHD but she's probably one of the more effective solo units to shoulder those hacking attacks. In my experience this can easily, and often does, turn into an order sink for your opponent.

    Let's use @fatherboxx example of the Naga KHD. Let's give it surprise shot Redrum in straight up hacking fight with Mary assuming no LoF, where Mary will obviously ARO Lightning to defend herself.

    Active Player
    41.89% Nagas inflicts 1 or more wounds on Mary Problems, Tactical ÜberHacker (Unconscious)
    19.79% Nagas inflicts 2 or more wounds on Mary Problems, Tactical ÜberHacker (Dead)
    Failures
    38.56% Neither player succeeds
    Reactive Player
    19.54% Mary Problems, Tactical ÜberHacker inflicts 1 or more wounds on Nagas (Unconscious)

    Even with Surprise shot it's a ~%60 chance that nothing happens or Mary comes out on top. Without Surprise shot, it's close to 65% for no result with Mary killing the Naga KHD 1/3 of the time, this is not an ideal use of your opponent's orders, and I welcome my opponent to commit to this engagement. Essentially, Mary is good at baiting this ARO option versus hackers because of Lightning if she's not a mission critical unit.

    As for the Interventor, she's cheap for a stellar hacker profile and it's all about high WIP, LT order hacking, BTS 9, and HD+. Keep her hidden, keep her safe. Buff a REM if it's worthwhile, assist Roul Spector's AD, get spotlight classifieds through repeaters, throw White Noise as an order or through a repeater in ARO to stop/slow a MSV rambo, or more often go into Cybermask and be that much harder to kill. Often her LT order is enough, and she doesn't draw from the order pool for some potentially powerful actions.

    The Interventor KHD should get an honorable mention. She's super cheap specialist with a lot of utility.
     
    #15 jfunkd, Feb 10, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2020
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  16. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    Having the ability to coordinate is also a game changer, especially against enemy hackers that are imposing a -12 mod, to try and brute force something through and take them down.
     
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  17. fatherboxx

    fatherboxx Well-Known Member

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    I have played her a lot, she is mostly garbage unfortunately - all due to obvious weaknesses and the need to have at least 1 active turn for cybermask or suppressive fire.
    A lot of proper rambo pieces either have stealth or non-hackable and things like Peacemaker/Rui Shi just bring in a repeater to kill her with a Zulu Cobra/Ninja (after reset). And she does nothing against Ariadna, Tohaa or Shasvastii on the first reactive turn except letting opponent chainrifle/specfire grenade her.
     
  18. csjarrat

    csjarrat Well-Known Member
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    I need to try her a few more times. Chucked her down last night (fully painted too) and she failed a cybermask attempt every turn and missed two pitchers. Achieved fuck-all all game!
     
  19. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

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    Not true for vanilla YJ: Guilang FOs with deployable repeaters are in most of the good vanilla lists I've seen. This will be even more common when Svalarheima comes out and they can probably have 3 or maybe more Guilangs.

    I definitely don't use this enough. Thank you for the reminder. I'll be facing fellow Nomads a bit in the near future and this will likely be a deciding factor.
     
  20. jfunkd

    jfunkd Rebel Myrmidon Graffiti Artist
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    I find her to be one of the best toolboxes in TJC and I know other players who have success with her, but I have also talked with other players that can't seem to get her to do much of anything. I guess ymmv.

    I'm happy I've had her do a lot of work for me and that I don't feel the same as you.

    Is the obvious weakness that she's 30 points and only one wound? I'm struggling to see where she's obviously weak other than that, she's got a decent profile for her potential roles. BS 11 sucks, but with ODD, it's not terrible.

    I don't' feel she needs to cybermask or SF to be a decent unit in the reactive. She has a lot more ARO options than most units and can Dodge on par with typical Melee fighters. I really only have issues losing her for no gain when MSV-2 units target her, but on some boards her climbing plus allows her to be in difficult to reach places. She can't speed bump then, but it can keep her safe for the objectives. DTW are problematic for her if she fails the dodge, but she can at least choose to stop the unit in it's tracks, that doesn't make for a good piece trade cost wise, but it can bail out the order pool from catastrophic damage (admittedly Hecklers are better at this, but Mary is enough of a toolbox, she can do it too).

    A Peacemaker/Rui Shi moving into range to reset from her Oblivion is probably going to work out for the Rui Shi/Peacemaker, but the Ninja and ZCobra are on bad odds to kill her through its repeater. Again, this has frequently been an order sink for my opponents and more than once left the active KHD unconscious.

    This is a situation where Mary kind of excels compared to her peers but you are framing it up as a bad situation for her to be in. In your example an important REM is in her hacking range and so is it's repeater. If Mary doesn't die here, a likely outcome, then she's in a great position to brick the REM or lash out through it's repeater.

    She does have a rough time starting reactive with these matchups and you'd probably be better off with a cheaper Heckler weathering the 1st Active, but after that Mary is going to frequently be the better unit to get the mission done.

    I'm sorry, but I'm getting tired of players speaking in absolutes like they have all of Infinity figured out. Mary isn't garbage, and I know this because of my personal experience with her. I'm sympathetic that you haven't had her work out well, and even though you may be a good player; just because she hasn't worked for you in your matchups doesn't mean the unit is bad. It just means she hasn't worked for you.

    Conversely, just because she has worked out for me doesn't mean she is an auto-include for all TJC players, but to me it does show that she has her place in Tunguska in lists for scenarios that utilize her skills and equipment.

    I find her to be an exceedingly good deal and an effective toolbox on a unique platform in TJC.
     
    #20 jfunkd, Feb 11, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2020