You understood and you're correct. Meditkit is a short skill all on it's own getting it off the hook. Which just leads me down a rabbit hole of how inconsistent, yada yada. Please look away now if you're not interested in the Infinity rules structure. (this would be better in it's own thread but i have no idea where) @ambisinister IMO Medikit shouldn't have it's own order skill activation at all. Take it and any similar skills/equipment and give them their own order skill. Infinity already does this to some degree. Movement order skills are a good example. There will be very few instances where making a new order skill isn't the way to go as things can be added or moved to them as the game changes. Choosing to have exceptions is rarely an advantage. Sticking Discover as a movement order skill when it shares nothing with movement actions is just so strange. Example: Trooper activation > Attack order skill = all the pew pew you're hit roll guts stuff. Trooper activation > Generic name order skill = all the not really harmful meaning no guts rolls stuff. Smokes order skill to activate it will depend on what CB wants to achieve. In other words, does CB want smoke resulting in a guts roll or not? CB just has to put each action under the appropriate order skill. These order skills will follow a very specific set of rules and make things so much easier to understand. If 50 attack order skill actions result in no guts rolls why write no guts roll needed 50 times when we could simply put them into their own order skill not requiring a guts roll. 50 less skills exceptions to remember in exchange for 1 order skill sounds great. Or perhaps make a sub category of weapons/equipment and put a single exception there if that works better. Instead CB decided to use phrasing/description/words/labels to convey these categories. Which is a giant F mess. It's obviously more complicated when considering the game as a whole but it's certainly something that can be figured out. What order skills are necessary should become apparent when mapping out everything and through discussion. Sub categories or labels are fine ideas when necessary. This is a huge topic and I'm sorry to have to put it here.
Ok, so if you're Stunned can you throw Smoke grenades? Only if it's a "special dodge"? Can you declare a "special dodge" when creeping up with someone with smoke to avoid a Warning? A lot if the rules relating to smoke grenades (like the ability to dodge if you get caught in the AOE) are written with the presupposition that it's an attack. Smoke grenades clearly aren't supposed to work like White Noise, where you can't make AROs against one landing on you, since the text says you can dodge etc in response. What gives you that dodge? You were hit hit by an attack. Bluntly, if CB (or you) want it to not count as an attack, they need to write rules that actually make that happen.
I thought we get to Dodge or BS attack(smoke special dodge is under this?) as an ARO if a trooper activates in our LoF. If a trooper gets hit by something like smoke or a flame thrower without LoF, a trooper also get an ARO. None of which is conditional on an attack being executed. Which to me means activating a trooper to use smoke can result in AROs but doesn't result in a guts roll. But i certainly agree with @Hecaton's last sentence, "if CB (or you) want it to not count as an attack, they need to write rules that actually make that happen" The rules may intend all kinds of things but wow are they unclear.
The template rules give you that Dodge, as I'm pretty sure you're already aware. Troopers affected by a Template Weapon or Equipment can declare Dodge as their second Short Skill or ARO, even if they do not have LoF to the attacker. White Noise is completely irrelevant, it's not a template weapon.
"Even if they do not have LoF to the attacker." This is in the context of an attack. Which, according to you, using a Smoke grenade is not.
Gotta be careful there; Infinity uses the word "attacker" to mean "enemy model" all the time. For example, you're allowed to declare dodge if you have LoF, even if you aren't being targeted by an attack. REQUIREMENTS The user must be able to draw LoF to the attacker. Just because the template line says "attacker" doesn't mean that the whole section has to be evaluated in the context of an "attack".
At that point we're ignoring the text as written and putting our own spin on it. Of course, we have to, because the text is inherently self-contradictory. I resolve it as I describe above. Otherwise you're left with the idea that you can walk up behind a model with sixth sense and drop smoke on them and they don't get to shoot you in ARO.
I would say yes and give reasons but what's that going to accomplish? As much as any ruling may look obvious it just doesn't hold enough weight. When a ruling is needed, you need @ijw 's interpretation/opinion.
Mostly that its incredibly counterintuitive and based on what I believe to be a specious interpretation of the rules.
I mean, ok... I get where you're coming from. And I definitely raised a number of these wording issues way back when N3 was first released. But if you're concerned about consistency, then you need to treat the word "attacker" consistently everywhere in the rules. And that would possibly mean that the Dodge skill becomes almost useless, because you aren't allowed to declare it if you had LoF to the opponent and they declared a movement skill as the first half of their order. This has come up in a couple of threads lately, but when push comes to shove, I'm pragmatic about rules, rather than idealistic. I want the rules to be tight, clean, and consistent. But I also want to have fun playing a game, and in the end that takes precedence for me.
Please note that I am not claiming that Smoke ammunition is well-worded, I've been complaining about the wording since before it was published. But. If throwing a Smoke Grenade is an Attack: Any Smoke template placed where it affects the firer will be cancelled. Any Smoke template placed where it affects an allied or neutral trooper will be cancelled, even if they're Unconscious. Any Smoke template placed where it affects an HVT will be cancelled. Any Smoke template placed where it affects a friendly Camouflage or TO Camouflage marker will be cancelled, even if it's one of your Mines. Any Smoke template placed where it affects an enemy Camouflage or TO Camouflage marker will be cancelled unless there is also a revealed enemy trooper in the Area of Effect. Any Smoke template placed where it affects an enemy IMP marker will be cancelled. Smoke templates would impose Guts Rolls, even on troopers with MSVs who completely ignore Smoke. The statement that Smoke is not an Attack has to be ignored. A reason has to be found for Dodging a Smoke template being a Normal Roll instead of a Face to Face Roll. If it isn't an Attack: The way everyone already plays Smoke Grenades works. It can be used while Stunned. Placing a Smoke template wouldn't trigger Sixth Sense. That's your 'incredibly counterintuitive'.
So to sum up... Smoke is a BS Attack skill declaration, but the effect it is not an Attack, therefore can't trigger Guts Rolls on anyone.
I'm not sure what players are expected to do in these situations. I'm great at seeing something and finding the cracks, it's natural for me. But I don't set out to find them. I set out to understand how something works so I know its limits. I need to know the limits to optimize its use. I'm competitive and play to win. I want to have fun too, and one of the ways I have fun is by trying to win. How do i try to win? I don't twist rules or push boundaries. I find out exactly what my troopers are capable of. I select fun combinations. It's only natural that i find issues. Now this is where the problem shows itself. It's not easy burying my head in the sand but i try. I try to use my best judgement and common sense to figure all this stuff out. It works sometimes, and doesn't other times. Then you run into those players who refuse to budge or make a huge deal when they give in. Giving in myself sucks when I don't think I'm wrong. Even the times it goes over smoothly someone usually gains from the ruling. These situations are just not fun and happen far too often for my liking. Now this is subjective for each person and I can already here the screams it doesn't actually happen that often. The thing to remember is... not everyone who plays is a vet. Not everyone who plays is comfortable with the basic rules. Not everyone has memorized all the rulings over the years. Not everyone even knows where all the rulings are. Rules that have clear answers get played incorrectly during games, we make mistakes. These issues come up far more than people are willing to admit IMO. It's a complicated game after all. Infinity is so close to being a great game. Which is why I want it to take that next step. Otherwise, it's a fantastic IP someone should turn into a PC game or MMO. Pretty please?
Yeah that doesn't make any damn sense. The rules are written like the fact that it's a "Special Dodge" makes it somehow obviously not an attack. The one passage that talks about this references it says "even though it is a special dodge and not an attack." It's referencing something that was never stated. The rules aren't written to account for this. We're firmly into "IJW's house rules" territory here. So if a model gets behind another, even with SSL2, and tosses a smoke grenade on them, they can't shoot back. And even if they succeed at their dodge, they can't leave the template by only moving 2", allowing the model using the smoke to engage them in CC or ignore them regardless of the success or failure of the dodge. That's some BS right there.
You're welcome to try to sum up better in some way, but "IJW's house rules" is the best we have until we get something official published. Like maybe that supposedly upcoming big FAQ/errata. Paging @HellLois I guess?
Apart from not being BS, it's completely and utterly irrelevant. Even if Smoke templates were an Attack, all you need to do is throw the Smoke Grenade so that it's a fraction of an inch from the Sixth Sense trooper's base. The reactive trooper hasn't been attacked and won't get to Dodge (regardless of Sixth Sense) and the active trooper is still in Smoke, even if they move into base contact.
To be clear only things with the 'Attack' trait are Attacks? BS Attack (or similar) is not sufficient to identify things as an Attack. BS Attack just defines a set of similar skills that can be co-ordinated together or count as the same declaration for the purposes of ARO? Because if so that's actually remarkably coherent and easy to follow. It's just not immediately obvious. Off-topic: Also if that's the case can we get the trait 'Hacking' added to all Hacking programs AND Surprise Shot. It would replicate this across to Hacking solving the Surprise Shot co-ord issue (RAW nothing stops you co-ordinating Surprise Shot Redrum with a BS Attack) and would make multiple different Hacking AROs valid (again*). * Individual metas may vary.
