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Ghost: Jumper LX and Idle

Discussion in '[Archived]: N3 Rules' started by DukeofEarl, Sep 11, 2018.

  1. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    There's no Combi Rifle, that's a typo in the English version on Army, see the other languages, or the profiles PDF.
     
  2. paraelix

    paraelix Seed Embryo Scholar

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    Except it does give up the combi and e/marat, because Army is wrong ;)
     
  3. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Argh, gods dammit :p
     
  4. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    Clear it is, I agree... But it also opens a door precisely to what you say: "aha, so now Idle can be declared as ARO". Because it was easy to write it the same way as the Marionette was.

    Then again, be as you like. Whenever a player has doubts regarding IDLE, I will just send it your way, so you can explain them that regardless of having Stealth, if a troop inside a link team or coordinated order declares an Attack order it is breaking stealth, and thus provoking AROs, despite executing an Idle because it can't perform the order or is not the team leader.
     
  5. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
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    Again, G: Marionette has the Puppet Master declaring an Idle. So there's no point saying that it could have been written the same way.

    Yes? That's correct.

    It's even specifically called out for Coordinated Orders:
    • If one or more of the participants in the Coordinated Order is unable to complete any of the Short Skills of the Order, then they only complete those they can. However, for the purposes of ARO generation, these troopers count as having declared all Short Skills of the Order.
    My emphasis.
     
  6. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    http://wiki.infinitythegame.com/en/Ghost_(G)#Ghost:_Marionette
    "To be considered an Idle" does not sound to me like "to declare an Idle" at all. I find your stubbornness strange, since I think it's you the one making the translations from Spanish to English.

    One person can be considered being a good person, but that does not make that one a good person; (s)he can kill kittens in her/his spare time for example (and I know of several people like that, who see no contradiction in giving food to stray cats and then killing all kittens but one... constantly).

    That is my position also, but there are people insisting that "since they do Idle, they do not break Stealth".
     
  7. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
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    1. The sentence is explicitly talking about Skill declaration. Not Skill resolution (which is where Skills become Idle).
    2. No, I'm the main English editor. I'm not directly involved in translation at all.

    And if you agree with the Stealth situation, why are you trying argue against it? I'm really bleeping confused by now. :-(
     
  8. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    I'm not arguing about the Stealth situation, just that people will become even more confused, and could even consider this as a justification for their posture.

    And for the Marionette skill, in spanish it reads:
    Translated as:
    "However, the troops with Ghost:Marionette will apply the Fireteam rule for ARO execution while any ARO declared by their controller will be considered an Idle, without performing any action".

    Now, the meanings may vary, but in Spanish it comes to say "whatever ARO the puppeteer declares will, at the time of execution, be considered an Idle". Because that tibdit of "will apply the Fireteam rule for ARO execution" conditions the whole following phrase in a concrete phase of the Order Sequence, that being Resolution (step 7).
    Meanwhile, the way Jumper LZ is written, it forces the Apsaras to declare Idle in the declaration phases (steps 4 or 6).
     
  9. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
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    It isn't though. In any way.

    Then there's a translation error. But as we've been discussing the English rule that doesn't stop you having misunderstood what the english wording says.
     
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  10. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    just to be clear, I'm not arguing the Jumper LZ works that way or another way. To me is totally clear that the intention is that if the Apsaras is giving the "now you have BS13, PHI13 and WIP14" to a Fireteam, any order or ARO imposed on the Apsaras because said fireteam having declared any order or ARO is to perform an Idle, the same way the Marionetists Idles everytime his Marionettes declare an order or ARO.
     
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  11. cbb

    cbb Member

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    @xagroth, @ijw I think I get both sides of the argument here, so let me see if I can summarize in some different words:
    • "Idle" as a concept just means that the model does nothing (no movement, no roll)
    • "Idle" is technically a skill because of how it fits into the game, but is really just saying 'nothing happens'
    • Any situation where something fails outright is considered "idle" to point back to the concept of doing nothing.
    • "Idle" has it's own skill entry: http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Idle

    This gets muddled for a couple reasons:

    The implication to the G:LZ skill is that a model can declare a skill in ARO that doesn't have the ARO tag. In this specific instance, Idle does absolutely nothing (so no effect), but it opens the door for the argument that other skills could also be Declared in ARO, despite not having the ARO tag.

    I see two possible resolutions to this from the above conversation:
    1. Add the "ARO" tag to Idle, since it doesn't break the game, and lets models declare idle in ARO (which I always assumed you could anyways)
    2. Fix the wording in G:LZ to not say "Declare", and fix that loophole.

    Does that sound correct, or did I miss a part of the argument?

    Quick edit: added a bullet point from the ARO page, where it says that ARO models "Declare" their ARO skill.
     
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  12. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    For my part, I believe it summarizes it accurately, thank you!
     
  13. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    It would give HD an ARO that would allow you to place them as a Marker rather than as a Trooper.

    At present the only way to do that is to declare that you "Delay your ARO against that Marker" and subsequently opt not to use the ARO.
     
  14. solkan

    solkan Well-Known Member

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    Problem with the "Idle as ARO won't break anything" claim: It would make it an ARO with the tags 'Movement, No LoF, No Roll'.
    Every single 'No LoF' ARO skill explains when it can be declared to avoid making that ARO mandatory outside of line of sight. (The ZoC AROs have to explain that they're ZoC AROs.)
    Without that, Idle becomes a 'paragraph three' ARO without any restrictions and breaks the game.

    So, alternate suggestion that the underlined text
    • In the Reactive Turn, all the Troupe members and their Controller have their own ARO to any Order declared in their LoF or ZoC.
    • However, G: Marionette troopers will apply the rules for Fireteams when declaring that ARO, while any ARO declared by their Controller will be considered an Idle.
    is supposed to mean "ignoring the ARO declared by their Controller." In other words, the Marionettes are subject to the ARO restrictions for fire teams but don't have to worry about the controller's ARO conflicting with theirs.

    Because it would be nonsense for the first bullet point to say that the controller gets an ARO and then in the next bullet point change that ARO to Idle.
     
  15. cbb

    cbb Member

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    Good point. I think it comes back to G:LZ having the different wording that messes with things.
     
  16. clever handle

    clever handle Well-Known Member

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    These skills don't allow you to declare idle as an aro. They force you to. There is a difference there that prevents this as a thing from carrying over into other situations.... I don't believe any rewrite is required
     
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