1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Ghazi Muttawi'ah

Discussion in 'Haqqislam' started by QueensGambit, Jan 9, 2021.

  1. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit SecUnit

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2019
    Messages:
    1,543
    Likes Received:
    2,180
    Mutts are certainly not the unique, faction-defining, much-loved, much-hated unit they were in N3. For a long time, I barely glanced at them in N4. Recently I'm giving them a second look.

    The 5-point smoke profile seems objectively bad. It's very similar to a 5- or 6- point Shaolin, Galwegian, Desperado, Kum, or Morlock... but not as good as any of them.

    The 5-point e/marat and 6-point jammer are interesting as super-cheap reactive-turn area denial. But in the active turn, they don't have a good way to spend their impetuous and irregular orders. They don't have smoke, and if they attack a nearby target, it's not that hard to dodge a chain rifle or e/marat. The jammer is maybe the more appealing profile of the two, since if you do attack in the active turn, you can force a dodge/reset choice against your target.

    The really interesting profiles are the 9- and 10-point boarding shotguns. These guys compare reasonably well to other warbands. Compared to a boarding shotgun Shaolin, Galwegian, Desperado, Kum, or Morlock, the Mutts lose CC skill, but gain an e/marat or jammer. That means they're very good defense in the reactive turn, and still murderous in the active - nobody wants to choose between eating an e/marat or an AP boarding shotgun.

    My biggest problem with them is that they take slots away from Daylamis, and I feel the loss of every Daylami. But I've tried including one or two of them in lists recently, and been fairly happy with the results. It feels like I gain a lot of orders when I replace a Daylami - who rarely even uses her irregular order - with a Mutt, who often uses both her irregular and impetuous orders to good effect.

    Have you been bringing Mutts and N4? What are your thoughts on them?
     
    Urobros and HotFreshTofu like this.
  2. HardDisk

    HardDisk Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2017
    Messages:
    363
    Likes Received:
    256
    I'm with you, i liked the 9pts one for DZ defense and smoke tossing some times, and now with the MSV1 buff, we can play a little more with Govads, the 5pts E/Marauts i use once like a mobile mine, it helped a bit, but a daylami is better for it.
     
    QueensGambit likes this.
  3. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Antipodean midwit

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2018
    Messages:
    1,949
    Likes Received:
    3,901
    I'm increasingly putting at least a one-of the 9pt Ghazi in my Hassassin lists to have a smoke model to run point with a haris team. For example:

    This is Muyib. There are many like it but this one is mine.
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]10 [​IMG]2
    ASAWIRA AP Spitfire, Nanopulser / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (1.5 | 39)
    ASAWIRA (Doctor [+3]) AP Rifle, Light Shotgun ( | MediKit) / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (0 | 36)
    MUYIB (Tactical Awareness, X Visor) Heavy Rocket Launcher, D-Charges ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 25)
    YARA HADDAD (Strategic Deployment) AP Marksman Rifle / Heavy Pistol(+1B), CC Weapon. (0 | 28)
    MUYIB (Tactical Awareness, X Visor) Heavy Rocket Launcher, D-Charges ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 25)
    ASAWIRA (Doctor [+3]) AP Rifle, Light Shotgun ( | MediKit) / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (0 | 36)
    GHULAM (NCO) Rifle, Grenade Launcher, Smoke Grenade Launcher / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1 | 15)
    BARID (Hacker, Hacking Device) Rifle, Pitcher ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 17)
    GHULAM (Lieutenant) Rifle, Light Shotgun / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 11)
    FIDAY Rifle, Light Shotgun, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 26)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]1 [​IMG]4 [​IMG]1
    BARID (Hacker, Killer Hacking Device [UPGRADE: Trinity (-3)]) Rifle, Pitcher ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 15)
    MUTTAWI'AH Boarding Shotgun, E/Marat, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 9)
    DAYLAMI (Camouflage [1 Use], Infiltration) Light Shotgun, Panzerfaust / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 6)
    DAYLAMI (Camouflage [1 Use], Infiltration) Light Shotgun, Panzerfaust / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 6)
    DAYLAMI (Camouflage [1 Use], Infiltration) Light Shotgun, Panzerfaust / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 6)

    6 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army
     
    Urobros and QueensGambit like this.
  4. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit SecUnit

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2019
    Messages:
    1,543
    Likes Received:
    2,180
    Interesting - so you can put one team on each flank. The core has its own smoke from the Ghulam NCO, and the Mutt goes on the flank with the haris.

    I think I'll give this a try. I'd started experimenting with two Mutts, but one might be the sweet spot. They're in a list similar to your where they only get one regular order, so having two just means the second one doesn't have a lot to do.
     
    RobertShepherd likes this.
  5. Koval

    Koval Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2019
    Messages:
    170
    Likes Received:
    144
    I think that's a good idea. Thinking back to our game a few days ago, for example, I think that a Mutt to support your Asawira with smoke and a sacrificial template would have been more useful to you than the fourth (or was it 5?) Daylami.
     
    RobertShepherd and QueensGambit like this.
  6. TriggerPuller9000

    TriggerPuller9000 Poverty Orde Wingate

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2017
    Messages:
    211
    Likes Received:
    429
    @QueensGambit I agree with your assessment entirely - the 9-10pt BSG/E-Marat profiles are the ones to take. Consider looking at them as an alternative source of smoke for Yara if you want to sub out the NCO Ghulam for something else (doctor?) in her link.

    For example, I would typically run this as a self-sufficient unit capable of doing the Smoke + MSV thing on its own. The drawback I see is that it doesn't have a doctor to pick Yara up if she bungles a FTF roll:


    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────
    [​IMG]5 [​IMG]1
    GHULAM (NCO) Rifle, Grenade Launcher, Smoke Grenade Launcher / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1 | 15)
    MUYIB (Tactical Awareness, X Visor) Heavy Rocket Launcher, D-Charges ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 25)
    BARID (Hacker, Hacking Device) Rifle, Pitcher ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 17)
    BARID (Hacker, Killer Hacking Device [UPGRADE: Trinity (-3)]) Rifle, Pitcher ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 15)
    YARA HADDAD (Strategic Deployment) AP Marksman Rifle / Heavy Pistol(+1B), CC Weapon. (0 | 28)
    3 SWC | 100 Points
    Open in Infinity Army

    Now, let's say that I want another specialist and a little more resiliency. I can pull one or two of those Daylami infiltrators back, turn them into the 9 or 10 point Ghazis who can then provide smoke for Yara's link and free up that slot for a doctor. For example:


    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────
    [​IMG]5 [​IMG]1
    GHULAM (Doctor [+3]) Rifle, Light Shotgun ( | MediKit) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 15)
    MUYIB (Tactical Awareness, X Visor) Heavy Rocket Launcher, D-Charges ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 25)
    BARID (Hacker, Hacking Device) Rifle, Pitcher ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 17)
    BARID (Hacker, Killer Hacking Device [UPGRADE: Trinity (-3)]) Rifle, Pitcher ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 15)
    YARA HADDAD (Strategic Deployment) AP Marksman Rifle / Heavy Pistol(+1B), CC Weapon. (0 | 28)
    2 SWC | 100 Points
    Open in Infinity Army



    What's the key difference? The Ghazis are more expensive than the Daylami and they can't infiltrate, but they can be a source of smoke for Yara, and pose a much greater threat to TAGs and HI. It's a hard sell to pull back Daylami but some of the logical targets for them simply aren't that scared of a BS11 Panzerfaust (e.g. TAGs or HI with TO).

    Edit: Bearing in mind efficiency, the Ghazi also gives you a little more order efficiency potentially. While NCO Ghulam can use the LT order to fire the smoke, it also means activating the link (which means the rest of the members have to be in total cover unless they want to get shot for free). Even if you blow the first throw, you can use Group 2 orders to try again as opposed to having to start burning through Group 1 Regular orders.
     
    #6 TriggerPuller9000, Jan 10, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2021
    QueensGambit likes this.
  7. HotFreshTofu

    HotFreshTofu Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2017
    Messages:
    252
    Likes Received:
    336
    In vanilla I have simply stopped taking them. If I do take one, it would be the Boarding Shotgun one with a jammer. 2 Daylami are so much better at defending and threatening than a ghazi. 360 lof from marker to blow up drop troops, get in the way of specialists trying to push buttons, and camo for slowing down alpha strikes, and infiltration for quadrant control missions... daylami are too good.

    Then I am always taking Zuleyka as she is currently far too good for just 1 pt more than a ghazi. She is a super ghazi on steroids who can kill any single unit in the game with ease. What can a ghazi do that Zuleyka cant do? or for that matter, a 5pt kum biker?

    If we had more than 15 slots, I might take some ghazi.. it's hard to say.

    as for HB I simply have no idea and can not comment.
     
  8. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    4,568
    Likes Received:
    4,900
    Wait, with +1B CC attack and +2B Breaker Pistols is she able to combine that for Burst 4 in CC?
     
  9. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    10,736
    Likes Received:
    13,404
    Speaking as an opponent and not a user of these units: I find it easier to deal with impetuous bikers than impetuous light infantry because the silhouette of a bike is hopeless to hide and they can't cautious move.
    And speaking as someone addicted to heavy infantry; the 9-point profile Mutta is the scariest.
    No. Burst MODs within brackets next to skills and equipment can only be applied one MOD source at a time. It's either B2 EXP CCW or B3 Breaker Pistol.
     
  10. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit SecUnit

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2019
    Messages:
    1,543
    Likes Received:
    2,180
    These are some interesting points.

    I see some factions using warbands as major attack pieces - someone you may spend a big chunk of a turn on. Through a combination of smoke and cautious move, you get up into the opponent's army and start slaughtering their key models. Galwegians love this tactic, and Daturazi and Morlocks are fond of it as well.

    Mutts, of course, can't do it because they don't have CC skill. Neither can bikers, as Mahtamori points out. But bikers are still better than Mutts at hitting a target in the midfield, because they can just drive right up to it in one or two orders and CC or chain rifle it.

    So my answer to "what can a ghazi do that Zuleyka can't" is defense. The Mutt can corner guard more effectively because it's smaller and prone, and has that e/marat. I would argue that the biker is almost purely an attack piece, whereas the Mutt trades some attack effectiveness in exchange for corner guarding effectiveness.

    Is that a worthwhile tradeoff? I still don't know. I ran one last night, but had first turn so didn't need the Mutt for a corner guard. She would have been useful as a smoke thrower for my Asawira haris, but they all dodged the Noctifer anyway so she wasn't needed.
     
    Urobros and Brokenwolf like this.
  11. TriggerPuller9000

    TriggerPuller9000 Poverty Orde Wingate

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2017
    Messages:
    211
    Likes Received:
    429

    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────
    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]9 [​IMG]1 [​IMG]1
    DJANBAZAN Heavy Machine Gun / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 34)
    ZULEYKA Light Flamethrower(+1B), Smoke Grenades / Breaker Pistol(+2B), EXP CC Weapon. (0 | 11)
    ASAWIRA (Lieutenant) AP Spitfire, Nanopulser / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (1.5 | 39)
    HAWWA' (Hacker, Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun, D-Charges ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 26)
    FIDAY Rifle, Light Shotgun, Shock Mines, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 27)
    AL-DJABEL Rifle, Light Shotgun, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Viral CC Weapon. (0 | 33)
    FARZAN (Minelayer) Boarding Shotgun, Shock Mines / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 24)
    RAFIQ REMOTE FTO Red Fury, Flash Pulse / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0.5 | 20)
    ROUHANI Submachine Gun, Flash Pulse / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 21)
    NASMAT PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 3)
    GHULAM Rifle, Light Shotgun / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 11)
    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]1 [​IMG]4 [​IMG]1
    NADHIR (Forward Observer) Submachine Gun, Flammenspeer / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 24)
    DAYLAMI (Camouflage [1 Use], Infiltration) Light Shotgun, Panzerfaust / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 6)
    DAYLAMI (Camouflage [1 Use], Infiltration) Light Shotgun, Panzerfaust / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 6)
    DAYLAMI (Camouflage [1 Use], Infiltration) Light Shotgun, Panzerfaust / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 6)
    MUTTAWI'AH Boarding Shotgun, E/Marat, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 9)
    4 SWC | 300 Points
    Open in Infinity Army

    Could try both - I think doubling up on Ghazis is probably not worth it as others have said - there is a lot of competition for those Irregular slots, and this is up against the bleeding edge of what I'd consider viable with a 15 order cap. First turn use Zuleyka to throw smoke for the Djanbazan. Second turn use the Ghazi. I dunno...just spitballing here. This is very similar to what I play in Bahram (double Fiday, lots of Daylami, MSV2+smoke shenanigans) though it trades a fireteam for more (and different) attack vectors.
     
  12. Xeurian

    Xeurian Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2017
    Messages:
    712
    Likes Received:
    855
    I've been tossing a single Boarding Shotgun e/Marat Muttawiah into my lists as well. Usually as something of a 2nd wave to the bikes so that I can have her counter punch any attack pieces that have pushed into my side of the board or just provide some smoke by the time the bikes are probably dead/stuck in.
     
    RobertShepherd likes this.
  13. grampyseer

    grampyseer User of the "ignore" button
    Warcor

    Joined:
    May 18, 2017
    Messages:
    352
    Likes Received:
    695
    I’m still finding them useful in Vanilla. A smoke thrower for MSV is still great.

    A jammer wedged at a critical point is still
    a nightmare to deal with.

    What I have found is that I have to be more deliberate about placement and advancing. As I’m not carrying both smoke and jammer, I can’t rely on that much role crossover to bail me out of junk situations.

    I’m generally taking 2 chain rifle and jammer Ghazi. They shore up the D very well.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  14. HotFreshTofu

    HotFreshTofu Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2017
    Messages:
    252
    Likes Received:
    336
    no. IJW confirmed that those bonuses do not stack.

    she has B3 Breaker Pistols or B2 EXP CCW. you can choose.
     
  15. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Antipodean midwit

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2018
    Messages:
    1,949
    Likes Received:
    3,901
    Can you chuck me a link to that? I haven't seen that thread.
     
  16. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    10,736
    Likes Received:
    13,404
    Probably the clearest answer from IJW on the topic is in this thread where he indirectly confirms it: https://forum.corvusbelli.com/threads/pistols-with-1b-in-cc.37850/
    (As for what IJW wrote on confirmation that the burst bonus working in melee as well when it comes to pistols: https://forum.corvusbelli.com/threads/two-pistols-in-cc.38930/#post-385952 )

    The rules are fortunately fairly easy to parse when it comes to burst mod stacking.

    https://infinitythewiki.com/Skills_and_Equipment_in_Infinity

    IMPORTANT
    If these Modifiers (MODs) affect Burst (B), they are only applied during the Active Turn. Troopers with more than one of these MODs may only apply one of them at a time.
     
  17. HotFreshTofu

    HotFreshTofu Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2017
    Messages:
    252
    Likes Received:
    336
    It's funny because it sets up

    opponent: "Does she get B4 in CC?!"

    and then you get to say "Noooo no no no. Don't worry. She only gets B3. It's been confirmed!"

    opponent "Ah, thank god.."

    B3 Breaker Pistols take out Achilles in 1 order.

    Johnny Cash's rendition of
    Hurt Plays.
     
    Xeurian and RobertShepherd like this.
  18. HotFreshTofu

    HotFreshTofu Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2017
    Messages:
    252
    Likes Received:
    336
    I just realized something I can add in favour of using a Ghazi. I believe I am up against Hassassins for my final TTS league game. the winner can potentially take 2nd place, so it's a bit high stakes, though a top 10 ranking is guarenteed.

    I have 13 points left over and I'm debating between a liberto minelayer and ghazi BSG jammer.

    both are solid on defense and trading up. but the advantage the ghazi has is an impetuous order, and wip 15.

    Ironically, Ghazi might be ideal for clearing Daylami. You either force them to reveal and shoot against a ghazi throwing smoke f2f, or you pop off an unopposed wip 15 (with mods ofcourse) discover.
     
  19. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    7,889
    Likes Received:
    14,305
    I'm fairly sure the Burst 2 EXP CCW has the better chance against Achilles!
     
  20. TriggerPuller9000

    TriggerPuller9000 Poverty Orde Wingate

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2017
    Messages:
    211
    Likes Received:
    429
    I did some fudging on the dice calculator...

    B3 Breaker pistols:

    B2 Exp CCW:

    By virtue of rolling more dice the standard error on the Breaker Pistols will be better as well. She's barely more likely to injure Achilles with the breaker pistols, but much less likely to die herself. Across the board, Achilles still punks her.

    In order to make it work in the dice calculator you have to fudge things like running the Breaker Pistols as a BS attack with a ton of modifiers as well as fireteam bonuses (and a burst nerf elsewhere) to counteract his mimetism (assuming Hoplite version). The Exp CCW version is a little more straightforward. Note that this doesn't count the additional 3 damage Achilles is putting out with MA4 in N4...dice calculator gets MA3. The values should be monotonically higher for him inflicting wounds on her in both cases.
     
    HotFreshTofu likes this.
  • About Us

    We are a company founded in 2001 in Cangas (Spain), and devoted to design and manufacture games and figures. Our main product, Infinity the Game, was born with the ambition to satisfy the most demanding audience, offering the best quality.

     

    Why are we here?

     

    Because we are, first and foremost, players.

  • Quick Navigation

    Open the Quick Navigation