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Future of Imperial Service

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by Space Ranger, Mar 1, 2019.

  1. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    It's not "whiny and toxic," it's just stating an opinion on moves CB has made. The problem is that some people take the "CB is my friend and I must defend them against any and all criticism" tack. So as long as people say that people who are critical of some of the things CB has done don't have the right to complain, I'm going to keep bringing it up until it's normalized.
     
    #81 Hecaton, Mar 5, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2019
  2. yoink101

    yoink101 Well-Known Member

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    Stating opinions is fine. Whining about it on every thread is tedious.
     
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  3. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    baneforyou.jpg
     
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  4. yoink101

    yoink101 Well-Known Member

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    Bring it.
     
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  5. HotFreshTofu

    HotFreshTofu Well-Known Member

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    Yeah.. I was considering about the breaker combi after posting that. Sometimes it can be really powerful, for example against a Black Jack. But there are many cases where it is straight up worse. I can't really think of other equipment or skills that grant negative effects. That alone makes it bad, in my eyes.

    Breaker pistols on the other hand are fantastic. It grants a choice in a niche situation, which may benefit you greatly. I feel basically, that breaker ammo is just a headache to deal with and think about. It might be better to have on a multi sniper for example, rather than AP which almost never gets used when the other option is DA.

    Anyway, thanks for your take on it. I am still undecided I suppose.
     
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  6. yoink101

    yoink101 Well-Known Member

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    I feel like there are only a few cases where breaker is worse. There aren’t many models that have high BTS and low armor. There are a few and it’s nice to have another option in those cases. But the fact that breaker halves BTS means it’s better than normal ammo against most targets.
     
  7. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    I don't have a problem with the Uprising happening. It was obvious that there were some ugly issues in Yu Jing clear back in N1 (Keisotsu had a profile then, but no models until HSN2), and Human Sphere made it even more obvious that some major unrest was brewing.

    But I have major problems with how the Uprising was written. It was jarringly out of character for how many of the factions had been written before. Sure, PanO is always going to kick YJ when YJ is down (see also US-Soviet relations during the Cold War!), we expect that. But Haqq and Nomads are acting as if the loss of the Japanese doesn't weaken YJ at all, while PanO is acting as if the loss of the Japanese is crippling to YJ. Worse, YJ is acting as if the loss of the Japanese was crippling, because PanO was committing acts of war over YJ territory without O12 approval of the Steel Wall, and YJ didn't respond.

    Even now, I'm hoping that CB uses the Uprising as a chance to write some redemption and fallout into YJ's coming fluff, ideally with whoever the reigning Emperor was during the Uprising "accidentally dying from accidentally falling down some stairs while drunk" and the new Emperor stomping PsychoCrane and the rest of the Einsatzgruppen Yuandun Division into the mud, being so irredeemable that they don't even get to be Kuang Shi.
     
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  8. yoink101

    yoink101 Well-Known Member

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    That’s fair. I guess I just didn’t feel like it came from nowhere. The writing for the book was...not great. The chain of events that happened I have no problem with. The Japanese were clearly considered second class at best within Yu Jing and I felt like the police state mentality was pretty clear.

    The writing of the book felt more like a propaganda piece than a tactical analysis, which is fine, but I also found it to be haphazardly assembled. The propaganda feeling means that it’s not hard for me to fudge details. It doesn’t make sense why the O12 didn’t get involved. It doesn’t make sense why JSA was able to be so successful. The intent was cool though and the resulting sectorial change was neat. That’s good enough for me.
     
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  9. atomicfryingpan

    atomicfryingpan Well-Known Member

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    If you think them leaving the game even if its through just one fuck up is pissing away all the work you do you may need to step back or do less work. The post I'm sure is meant to be impressive by how much you do and asking nothing in return but at the end of the day you just come across as bitter. The post sounds like you're taking it personally that these people left and how dare they and CB waste your time. Supporting game communities is thankless work that requires a ton of passion for the game which honestly sounds like your passion for it has died way down. I'd take a break from all that and just be a player for a bit so you can relax and enjoy the hobby/game.
     
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  10. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

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    Man... Don't google Communist or Jihadi terrorists.. xD
     
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  11. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    Guys please stay on topic. If you want to discuss about CB and their business practices, please start a thread somewhere else.

    I agree about the Agents being the ones that can mix. Zhanying, Pheasant, and Crane should all be Wildcards. I feel the Hsien too. Technically Hsien are the top agents. But I can see them limiting him to Haris teams.
     
  12. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    On design space: I don't think I understand how it works accordingly to what people suggest ITT.

    I.e., it is stated that Miranda is the reason IS cannot have some options with mimetism, but it is my understanding that simply having something similar doesn't mean you cannot have more of it. If it was the case, Ariadna, PanO and half of other armies wouldn't have existed.
     
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  13. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Frustrated would be a better word for it. I've been doing this for a long time for many games. I know what gets new players hooked, I know what gets them invested. Through experience I also know what doesn't work and what drives players away.

    I also know that it's way, way, way easier to make a player drop a game and walk away than it is to replace them with a new player. It is incredibly frustrating when you do everything right and yet in the end it's out of your control because someone who should fucking know better acts like an unprofessional idiot and messes it all up.

    Why? Why do that? It doesn't need to be done. This doesn't help anyone.


    So there's a couple of facets to the concept of design space.

    On a smaller scale. If units are too similar statwise and behave too similarly on the table, you run into an issue of certain models are going to just be statistically superior. This situation is most likely to occur if a particular area is over saturated by similar models because you're more likely to reach a situation like Shang Ji and Zuyong. Zuyong are just the same model made cheaper with less bloat stats.

    That is a legitimate concern. On the other hand, @Mahtamori's point really isn't valid because there isn't that level of over saturation where you can't make distinct units that behave in a similar job for some kind of gun fighter with a visibility modifier in ISS. Hell, the Zuyong and Shang Ji aren't even at a point where their area is over saturated it's just that sometimes CB have no clue what they're doing and didn't actually give the Shang Ji useful distinctive traits. Instead they just left them with crap like a CC stat of stupid and Shock CCWs for some reason to try and set them apart from Zuyongs.

    That's a similar story for the Pheasant. It's got some stupid stats and gear just because. There's no real reason it couldn't be redesigned to have Mimetism.


    On a macro scale for design space you have the overall theme to a faction and the way they play. ISS for example, like MAF, are super light on camo marker models with reduced AVA even for staples like the Ninja. They're also built to be a very aggressive faction in the active turn with a relatively weaker long range ARO presence with limited ability to build a strong defensive core fireteam.

    One of the ways this kind of balance is preserved is to slap SWC taxes on models that perform similar roles. It gives the player the option to push their list in that direction but it comes with a significant cost. It's the way CB says "you can have this, but we're gonna make it cost in more ways than one so you really need to want this." JSA for example, they're allowed to take remotes but they're supposed to be limited in access to them so they have to suck up an extra 0.5 SWC on TR bots and Rui Shi. Same for the new French bike doctor, FRRM is traditionally very light on smoke access so getting a fast specialist that carries smoke costs a whole extra SWC.
     
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  14. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    You haven't got any sort of clue what type of internal justification process is at place anymore than I do, Triumph. It could very realistically be that they have marked the sectorial as very low on CH skills in general, in which case a single merc will occupy a huge amount of design space. In fact, Miranda might be considered over-saturating the faction on her own.

    Factions are intentionally not created equal.
     
  15. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    They have 4 units with visibility modifiers (not counting helper bots) so I don't think the sectorial is set with an intentionally low amount of that. I do think there is a definite limitation on marker states though. I find them similar to MAF in design in terms of direct action brute force kick your door down arrest/subjugate you, hell they even share cheap core Warband links that have Explode as a rule with a smoke grenade launcher toting leader.

    Visibility modifers are fair game for both sectorials, infiltrating skirmisher camo marker state type guys though are largely off the menu.
     
  16. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, all of which are essentially mercs (plus generic sniffer REM) and we both know that leaving Ninjas in Yu Jing and ISS was because they probably didn't think the faction would survive without them.
     
  17. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Your point being? Mercenary usage is a key theme to more than one sectorial, they have as much right to be there as any other model. Thematically there's nothing against brute force beatstick factions carrying Mimetism to win gun fights. Hell our newest brute force beatstick sectorial's flagship new model is a big dumb gunner with Mimetism.

    I forgot Lunah is in ISS, she's a mimetism gunfighter too so add her to the list. I also forgot Sun Tze, he also has Mimetism.

    So 7 models now and that's only counting Miranda once. I don't think it's fair to argue that there's some kind of Mimetism ban or shortage for ISS in terms of design. I mean shit, for a smaller sectorial which are 18-22 models 7 is like a third of the possible unit entries.
     
    #97 Triumph, Mar 5, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2019
  18. yoink101

    yoink101 Well-Known Member

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    I’m willing to bet that the only changes CB might give ISS will be to mix their fireteams a little bit. If they add a wildcard, the Kuang Shi team will probably prohibit wild cards. Which is fine with me.

    I really like the Celestial Guard Fireteam. I think a Bao, Zhanying, or Pheasant added to it would’ve fun, fluffy, and interesting.

    If a Crane agent could be in a haris, I might actually use him sometimes.
     
  19. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Given that ISS core links aren't particularly integral or packing strong ARO heat, it's entirely possible to just run the Crane+CGs as a 3 man core. It's just if you do that... it's 24pts to add two bodies and get +3 BS as well it's kinda hard to overlook that.
     
  20. yoink101

    yoink101 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, but the Kuang Shi order battery is still a thing. My biggest objection to the crane core team is that the crane wants to be aggressive in the mid table. Dragging 4 mooks with who will die quickly to skirmishers, mines, chainrifles, a stiff breeze...okay, not the last one. But they are just light infantry. Tactically it feels really incongruous.

    If the crane had an hmg, or a Hsien hmg could fit into the link, that’d be awesome.