Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by Space Ranger, Mar 1, 2019.
Gib Su Jian buff pls.
Seriously, IS is really strong and versatile right now, no need for a buff.
What they should do is take a look at different units and reasons things are spammed. Kuang Shi overly prevalent? Nerf them. Limit them to 4 per CG controller or something. Bao garbage tier and nobody takes them? Buff them etc.
What they shouldn't do is start deleting models from the faction that don't have a home anywhere else in a moronic attempt to "tidy things up"
All that's gonna do is make people mad and not actually achieve anything. Inb4 some idiot says "start Aleph to play with your one Garuda."
CB are in the business of releasing limited edition minis that people pay good coin to chase after them, I know people that are looking for ninja shoppers to chase down models like these
The last thing CB should ever do is start deleting models out of factions.
If stuff is a problem for fuck's sake YOU BALANCE IT. You don't just start deleting models out of factions. Things like removing Fusi's from MO was a dumbass move from CB. It's clear they didn't want the Fusiliers leading Knights around so they should've applied a balance to change to discourage it, like a big SWC tax on the LT option for example (and we know that works, we used to have the same on Keisotsu).
Allow people who want to play with those models they've bought and put together to carry on as they were, and yet apply enough of a change to naturally push it out of the wider meta.
Mmmm for me SI is fine except for the 1.5 SWC tax from the pheasnt red fury. With just another pheasnt getting haris or the red fury one getting a MSV2 this could be fixed. (really if you pay the points for a MSV2 link, the idea is to give one to the "big weapon guy"
Apart, DON'T DARE YOU TO TOUCH MIRANDA ASCROFT, that duo is one of the funiest links in this game. I don't get why people see bounty hunters and miranda as a bad thing.
I need this bundle.
I'm sorry, but only an idiot thinks that balancing stuff in a game like Infinity can be achieved only by buffing the stuff that's not taken much without also removing access to other things in a game like Infinity where access to options is the primary balancing act. Plus, ISS is heavily bloated compared to any other sectorial with by far too many options.
Cut the crap out that was added in a hap-hazard way to bolster the sectorial's popularity and make the stuff that was actually part of the sectorial worth taking.
Roughly 5 units have to go, and many of the profiles that have problems in ISS have problems in vanilla while the needless chaff that was added isn't part of vanilla at all.
That is absolutely false. You can achieve balance through moderating profiles. If for some inane reason buffing Bao somehow causes a balance issue because you can have a cheap specialist duo in the form of CSUs, you can simply remove the specialist operative profiles or do CB's current move when they want a faction to have access to something but not make it common place, place a SWC tax on it. See the JSA remote SWC taxes, or the SWC smoke Tax on the bike doctor for Ariadna.
They do not need to go anywhere. Should they have been added in the first place? Maybe not, but that doesn't change the fact that they are here now and people have bought, built, and painted models for them, some quite expensive.
You are confusing the need to remove models for the sake of a ridiculous arbitrary number for the need to constrict a faction's playstyle for design space reasons.
For example, compared to Vanilla, ISS is extremely light on Camo skirmishers with only the Ninja available at reduced AVA. That is a deliberate constraint to make them play different and to make them have an identifiable build limitation. ISS's extra models are not causing them to encroach on such an area.
Tell me, what area are the mercenary flavour options encroaching upon that they shouldn't? What sort of playstyle is Sforza, Ashcroft's Duo, and the CSUs unlocking that shouldn't be unlocked? You need to answer that question before you even think of needing to delete a model from an army and even then you shouldn't delete them. You should change the profile so it doesn't encroach on that area.
My point would be none of these models do anything particularly amazing outside of make the sectorial's army bar longer and that is absolutely fine. Have you even seen anybody put Ashcroft's party on the table? I haven't. A sectorial having access to a few extra esoteric options that aren't even commonly used isn't an issue.
I think ISS is fine as it is.
Even Baos and pheasant aren't that bad, I think a few tweaks to the pheasant (like a specialist operative non CoC red fury profile) would be enough to make them worthwhile. If you really want to buff the baos, I think upgrading their V:courage to V:dogged would be the most adequate upgrade they could possibly get.
I'd like to see MMLX back on Sun Tze V2 too, that alone would make him very interesting since it's an ability that synergize very well with strategos and a Lt roll advantage. ATM to do the job of ST V2 it's more interesting to take ST V1 alongside Lunah or a Pheasant sniper.
If you want to remove some bloat I think the irregulars profile for miranda and sforza could go, though it would require a few tweaks to the ashcroft's hunting party so you can field regular miranda on her own. Honestly, I'd get rid of the hunting party entirely. Just let bounty hunters duo, have miranda count as a bounty hunter for fireteam composition and call it a day.
If you rank everything on a scale of 1 to 5 where 0 is literally unplayable (and there are no such profiles), 1 is "never worth the points", 2 is "seldom worth their points, rarely taken for their gear", 3 is "average, typically taken for their gear or as order generators if cheap", 4 is "always worth their points" and 5 is "the unit will carry your list reliably", models at 1 to 2 are not worth having. Bao and Pheasant are poster children for 2 (with some kits being 1), meaning you'll occasionally have a use for one or two of the profiles, but by no means are these units any good.Most lists will consist of 4s, dipping into 3s to get the gear you need to complement the lists. You will be able to make a list out of units that would rank low by most people, the unexciting models, and you can win with them, but you'll probably leave the game feeling like you played with a handicap.
Su-Jian is a poster child for 5.
As for the slew of mercs.
Sforza was basically created for ISS. Used to be he didn't exist outside of ISS, similar to Saito and JSA. He's the token merc that helps shape the sectorial. But it'd be nice if we could get some Yu Jing characters.
CSU wasn't even part of ISS when it was released as the Red Veil special. There's a weird overlap between these guys and ABH, and honestly sectorials should be more focused than having two out-of-faction units overlapping each other and several other in-faction units.
ABH doesn't do much that Celestial Guard or Zhanying* couldn't or shouldn't be doing.
Miranda needs to be reconstructed from bottom up. As long as she's in ISS, she's using up design space and effectively keeping the sectorial back.
Lunah I'm very ambivalent about. Again, it's a nail in the eye that Yu Jing keeps getting out-of-faction characters. For some reason it feels like she's here for storyline purposes and that she's not necessarily permanent in the first place.
* so pricey :(
The only thing that ISS needs is for the Bao and Pheasant to be a little better. Some updated fireteam mixes would be good. Wildcard for the pheasant and/bao would make things more interesting. I think they’d have to be barred from the Kuang Shi link though. That would be easy, but would encourage a couple of different play styles.
Why the pheasant has physique of 10, I will never understand. The one profile with any kind of grenade in the imperial service, oh here’s a worthless physique for it. Wu Míng or a Crane with stun grenades would be awesome. Actually, I want that crane sensor profile to have stun grenades. I feel like he needs a slight tweak because he doesn’t have the ability to solidly win gunfights, which is not good for a 50+ point model.
I do agree that it is weird that Kuang Shi shouldn’t generate regular orders. The idea of having a g-sync hoard like like the chimeras in Bakunin would be fantastic and super fluffy.
And if you make the Kuang Shi G-Sync like pupniks or antipuppies, there wouldn't be a problem with the newly-Wildcard Pheasant and Bao in a Kuang Shi link. Also gives you the option of replacing the Kuang Shi models with robodogs.
Yes, more models in the Imperial Service with Stun Grenades (and Stun Pistols/Tasers, plus Electric Pulse/Stunguns) would be good. For that matter, the Moderators should also have lots more Stun equipment.
Yeah, that would be a much better idea than the current way of making Kuang Shi work. I'm not even sure why CB made the KS provide orders, instead of being G:Sync like Antipode Packs or Chimera+Pupniks.
Please, please fix Zhanying . Those models are so nice , but they are simply worthless apart from being guy # 5 with the wu Ming , or buffing the Hsien in the Harris . Even then, it’s kind of annoying to have to use them.
Break combi rifles kind of overpriced and bad, aren’t they? If I’m wrong please inform me.
I don't know, man. Having the tinbot wu ming plus the Zhanying hacker is fantastic. The madtraps sensor guy is a great option also. Reveal camo, glue if necessary, crush with wu ming. Repeat.
Breaker Combis are overpriced. They are more effective than a combi against a lot of pieces though.
Honestly, if we saw some of the mixed fireteams from Yuan Dun added to ISS, it would be amazing. Not that they need it.
*informs you you are wrong*
Well... in my opinion at least. Breaker Combis are only +2 points over combis and as such on par with the cost for what AP Combi would cost, but hitting an armour that is commonly low. It's true that the armour halving effect of AP owing to ARM tending to be both costlier and in even numbers is better, but on the other hand half of Aleph and most targets you shoot at will have BTS 0 while a good chunk of target with BTS 3 will also have ARM 2 or 3.
It really is Sixth Sense 2 (and CC 16) that's driving prices up, otherwise the FO profile would be much, much, closer to Xi Zhuang. Their loadouts are fairly sane, even if the Missile Launcher and HMG are kind of out of place for a unit that's in the perfect spot to be a swiss army knife style unit.
As others have said, ISS is strong, ISS is bloated, ISS has a distinctive style of play and it leverages kuang shis to carve out its niche in the meta. If you change kuang shi to make ISS a low order count faction, this faction (and bunch of order inefficient but quite interesting stuff) will no longer have a place and the game of infinity will suffer as a result. It is worth cultivating overall balance between factions, a balance pass is highly desirable and things cant just be made endlessly cheaper/more order efficient.
Loss/consolidation of profiles is acceptable, the number of options within ISS is troublesome more is not better: the best games of infinity you will ever play are the ones where your opponent is aware of what is going on! ISS would be improved by a good pruning, overall play experience could be more satisfying as a result. Link teams all playable and flexible as is, it is hard to see wildcards producing a better system.
Irregular Bounty hunters, CSUs, the 6 duplicate characters and the warcor are all on chopping block imo pick 5?
Oh wait, whats this? the irregular bounty hunters are gone! Good job CB 4 left
I agree with the Dr/Engieer, the support pack would fill that gaps. I have always loved ISS but the fact they don't get access to the TAG always made no sense to me. Murder Kitty is fun but a good tag would open up options for lists. And either Sun Tzu versions need to be modified some how. He is too many points for just Strategos L3. V1 should get ARM 5 and BTS 5. With 2 W and NWI is nice but 60 point with no Harris/link team option means he just sits in the back. If you do take him he is your LT so you have to take Pheasant with COC so that 29-36 points, right there you are out 96 points on two units. and up to 3 SWC depending on if you take V2. I just hate V2 and almost never take him unless in limited insertion. But why would you ever take V2 sniper Advance command is great in LI but he is only good on active turn and with WIP 17 flash pulse and a possible 17 on BS (but it never is that high thanks to cover and cammo etc) it would be worth the points if he had MSV2 in stead of MSV1) Drop some smoke and then start shooting. MSV2 would make him an option for ARO if you have COC on the board. But we are back to risking 60 point to take out 10 to 20 point units. Not really a fair trade some times. I would be OK with no TAG if any version of Sun Tzu was better. He is just too many points to just have sitting in the back of the field on anything other than LI lists. Otherwise I agree with all your thought.
Celestial Guard and ABH/CSU already have their own niche. You don't see people never taking CGs because CSU and ABH exist, CG have core link team options and that will always make them highly relevant to the sectorial.
Now on Zhanying. I find Zhanying's profile decent, or good enough. It's not as you put it a Su Jian 5, but it's decent enough that given the incentive you can put it on the table and feel good about it.
The problem is the incentive is missing. The incentive being link team options.
Zhanying are a natural candidate to mirror the Haidao in usage. Being a toolbox unit you slot into links to provide support. While I don't think they need to be wildcards exactly, what they need are more interesting link options to get them on the table. They have two decent options right now but they're pricey and require a large commitment in one of two directions. Zhanying/Hsien Haris feels good, buffing the Hsien is great. Zhanying hackers providing support to Wu Ming and benefiting from their Tinbots also feels great.
If you have more options, like being able to put more Zhanying in a Wu Ming link, or giving them a special Wu Ming Haris you'll see them more frequently. If you give them a cool new link like a Rui Shi Haris, basically a Hsien lite option, you'll see them more often.
If you unfuck the fuckery which is Bao and give them some link options with Bao, you'll get the Zhanying on the table more often.
Hell if you let them Haris with a Pheasant you'd probably see people making Pheasant MSR/Red Fury links just because they could. If you want to get real crazy allow them to special Haris with a Pheasant and Sun Tze, even if that isn't super effective you can bet people would gladly put that on the table.
I think they're fine for ISS right now it's just you don't see them much because they require a specific pricey link commitment to get them on the table. I do not think they at all compete with the CSUs, ABH, or in fact need to in anyway.
This is hardly true at all. As she is right now you could add what is basically an identical native YJ profile to ISS that swaps out I-kohl for a more thematic Martial Arts level and people would barely touch the profile. She's not popular, she's rarely taken. She's not eating up any sort of design space nor does she unlock some particular play style YJ shouldn't be doing. As I said before she basically just makes the army unit bar longer right now, but for some people they own models and enjoy using her so deleting her for no reason serves no purpose except to piss people off.
Giving players the shits for no reason is the last thing CB should be doing. I'm the last remaining YJ player in my local group because Uprising made the others straight up quit the hobby. Quit. Not swap factions, not take a break. Straight up said fuck this shit, left, and never came back. Personally I was on a knife edge from following suit last year.
Wildcard Pheasants. 1-2 Bao can join Celestial Core. Sniper Sun Tze gets Marksmanship LX back now it doesn't suck. Access to Merc TAGs (maybe Geckos, Anaconda, Scarface) in mission where TAGs score (same for HB and any others that don't have TAGs)
Give the Bao troops some SMG's and stun and E/M grenades, drop Six Sense down to 1 on the Zhanyings and buff their PH, make Pheasants count as CG for fireteams, give the Hsien wildcard. Done, ISS has been fixed and no one could ever moan about them again. CB, I am currently looking for a job please and thank you. ;)
Why would the FBI have an actual tank? Same question.
If the situation gets to the point where you need to deploy TAGs (say, because the rebels have them), it's beyond the ability of law enforcement to handle and you should be calling the StateEmpire Army.